Howdy there, Cosmerenauts! Welcome back to the Oathbringer Reread, where we again join Kaladin on his travels. This time, he’s searching for Voidbringers, while Sylphrena makes awkward suggestions for his happiness, and Adolin visits his father’s Ryshadium.
Reminder: we’ll potentially be discussing spoilers for the ENTIRE NOVEL in each reread. This week, we didn’t find any notable Cosmere connections, so you’re safe from those spoilers in the article; we make no promises about the comments! But seriously, if you haven’t read ALL of Oathbringer, best to wait to join us until you’re done.
Alice: Hey, y’all, Lyndsey is crazy busy dealing with her duties for Anime Boston this week, so I begged Paige to join me. I’ve gotten rather fond of this conversational format, so … welcome, Paige!
Paige: Greetings, rereaders … Paige from New Mexico, reporting for duty! I’ll keep my intro short and sweet (HAHAHAHA!!) so that we can get down to OB bidness.
Though I’m a newb contributor here at the tor dot com, you may know me from such articles as the SA refresher, Parshendi/Voidbringer article, OB spoiler recap, and/or SA4 speculation. I’m happy to fill in for Lyndsey for a sec, but no worries, I’ll pay tribute to our beloved squire.
I’m also a newb alpha/beta/gamma reader for Brandon, and first stepped into that hallowed role for Edgedancer. Aside from the Arcanum Unbounded gamma and the Oathbringer beta/gamma, my only other belt notch is the recent, non-SA/non-Cosmere, Legion: Lies of the Beholder alpha. I hope to continue beta reading, as it’s an honor and a privilege to help Team Dragonsteel to make these books as awesome as possible.
Aside from stalking authors (well, an author), beta-reading the things, and working one of two jobs, I help out as a moderator on The Stormlight Archive Facebook group, participate on the JordanCon Art Show Programming team, herd my 2 needy cats, and listen to the Yankees as much as possible for half the year. It’s Opening Day, guys! I’m almost always writing for a flash fiction competition or summat, have a few pieces recently published in anthologies, and hoard a few trunk novels, which I hope to dust off, polish, and shop. Soon.
I see that my time is running out so, in closing … I’m mom to fabulous 23-year-old daughter and also have *counting* 6 stepkids (ish) who, between them, have 5 kids (+1 on the way). So yeah, I’m totes a grandma. But like, a badass grandma.
Also, it’s 3:00 a.m. right now which means that I rarely sleep. Hopefully, that explains the crazy. #sorrynotsorry
A: Now you know why Lyndsey and I call on her. Who doesn’t need a badass grandma as backup?
With that, here we go:
Chapter Recap
WHO: Kaladin, Adolin
WHERE: Rural Alethkar (Sadeas princedom), Urithiru
WHEN: 1174.1.2.4 (two days after Chapters 5-7), 1174.1.23 (The day after Chapters 8-9)
For the last two days, Kaladin has spiraled his way out from Hearthstone, searching for signs of the Voidbringers and warning anyone he finds that the wrong-way storm will be returning. He’s found no signs of attack, just wrack and ruin from the storm. This day, he enters a town called Hornhollow, where the people have already heard of his mission and are prepared with charged spheres to trade to him. They also have news: about fifty of the Voidbringers raided their grain storage, then headed straight toward Kholinar.
Adolin visits Gallant in his pasture, where they grieve together over the loss of Sureblood. Renarin seeks out Adolin, and asks him to find someone else to bear the Shardblade he’d won in that first duel. He finally admits and demonstrates that he has a live Blade of his own, and inadvertently heals Adolin’s injured wrist.
Threshold of the storm
Title
A: “Distractions” comes from the entertaining conversation between Syl and Kaladin, when she’s trying to hook him up with the local ardent (we’ll discuss that conversation below, and Lyndsey is going to be SO MAD that she missed this one!) since Shallan isn’t nearby.
This is a distraction. Like that Lightweaver could be for you…”
Thematically, there are a lot of distractions going on: Kaladin and Syl have silly conversations to distract him from his worry over the Voidbringers, Kaladin tries to distract Syl from her “helpful suggestions,” the Voidbringers appear to be creating some distractions of their own, and Adolin distracts himself from murder investigations.
Heralds
All four spots are occupied by Paliah, the Herald associated with the attributes Learned & Giving, the role of Scholar, and the order of Truthwatchers.
A: So now the big question is whether she’s here primarily because of Renarin’s Radiant behaviors—his Blade and his healing—or whether we are to see some of her function also in what Kaladin is doing.
Oh, here’s a thought: Syl has been doing Research! Scholarspren FTW! Heh.
P: Seriously, get out of my brain. Or maybe I need to get out of yours, because yes, scholarspren was a thing I thought.
Icon
This chapter bears Kaladin’s Spears & Banner icon, and of course Kaladin occupies most of the chapter.
Epigraph
Perhaps my heresy stretches back to those days in my childhood, where these ideas began.
—From Oathbringer, preface
A: So once again, I have to ask: what days in his childhood? Is this referring to the glimpse from Chapter 89 in Words of Radiance, where he saw his childhood home as it was before the conquest, with his collection of wooden swords carved like Shardblades? That’s the first time we saw that “warm light” that he described as deep, enveloping, piercing, and familiar. Last week I posited that he was referring to the days of conquest and his early experiences with the Thrill, but while that might fit last week’s “since my youth”, it hardly suits this week’s “days in my childhood.” It seems that despite getting a book full of Dalinar’s flashbacks, there are still things we don’t know.
P: I agree that “childhood” and “youth” have vastly different connotations. Young!Dalinar was absolutely not a child, even in his earliest flashback. To many of us here in the real world, one is considered a “child” until they’re legally an adult, though “childhood” generally refers to the period between birth and puberty. Of course, it’s entirely possible that Brandon is using the word veerrry loosely because, growing up in Alethkar, Dalinar would already have been training on the sword during his “childhood”.
So (bear with me while I speculate) perhaps Dalinar questioned the validity of the Almighty even as a child of, for giggles, let’s say ten or twelve? The possibility takes my thoughts to Jasnah, and what she experienced as a child to result in enough cracks (according to what we know thus far, of course) to warrant a Nahel bond. She is—famously—a heretic, so perhaps her “lunacy” during her own childhood had something to do with her voicing similar opinions.
Hey … it’s possible. *ahem*
A: Good points. I focused in on “childhood” and ignored that he was talking about his “heresy.” Just please, someone reassure me that we’ll eventually find out what he was talking about for sure?
Stories & Songs
He lifted the Sylblade high overhead, prompting a cheer from the crowd. He would have bet that most of the people in this square used to curse the name of the Radiants, but none of that was manifest now in the people’s enthusiasm. It was hard to believe that centuries of mistrust and vilification would be forgotten so quickly. But with the sky breaking and the land in turmoil, people would look to a symbol.
A: Funny, isn’t it, how terror can change people’s minds? I won’t make the RL comparisons, good or bad, but it’s true: when people are frightened, they sometimes seek hope in places they’d formerly thought despicable.
P: This also brings to mind how a mob—and a scared one, as you say, Alice—will align itself with whoever is standing in front of it, showing their strength. If Amaram had ridden into town with the corpses of children hanging from his saddle and proclaiming he’d defeat the Voidbringers if they swore fealty to him, they’d have done so happily, I think. Mobs. *scoff*
“The red lights,” Kaladin said. “Describe them again.”
… “Um, all five witnesses mentioned the lights, Brightlord. There were several small glowing red lights in the darkness.”
“Their eyes.”
“Maybe?” the ardent said. “If those were eyes, it was only a few. I went and asked, and none of the witnesses specifically saw eyes glowing—and Khem got a look right in one of the parshmen’s faces as they struck him.”
A: The red lights must be spren… Paige, any thoughts?
P: Gotta be spren, yes? While Yixli is yellow, Ulim is red. So … maybe the lights are other Voidspren that led groups of the former Parshmen together? That seems a more likely scenario than a few Fused with glowing eyes hanging out with the refugees, especially as Khen doesn’t know what a Fused is when the group arrives at Revolar later on in Chapter 31.
A: It never occurred to me before; by the time Kaladin joins them, there’s only Yixli guiding the big group. But it makes sense that Voidspren would go out looking for scattered groups of reawakened (and confused) parshmen, bring them together, and then leave a single guide while they go look for others. How else could they get/keep most of them headed in the right direction?
Relationships & Romances
A: There’s plenty that could be said about the relationship between Kaladin and Syl. as well as her attempts to push him into other relationships, but… we’re going to talk about most of it below. Right here, I just want to laugh at this bit:
“I just want you to be happy, Kaladin,” she said, zipping off his shoulder and running a few rings around him as a ribbon of light. “People in relationships are happier.”
“That,” Kaladin said, “is demonstrably false. Some might be. I know a lot who aren’t.”
“Come on,” Syl said. “What about that Lightweaver? You seemed to like her.”
The words struck uncomfortably close to the truth.
A: Kaladin shuts down this line of thought pretty hard, since Shallan is engaged to Adolin, but (in retrospect) this is clearly setting up the triangle/square/weird thing to come later.
P: You literally beat me to this, Alice. I was about to drop in that very section of text and comment in a very similar vein. So once again, as I did many times during the beta, I will +1 Alice’s comment. Also, “triangle/square/weird” is the perfect descriptor for what that was. Is. Will be. Whatever.
I included Kaladin’s thought about how the words struck uncomfortably close to the truth. I would like to point out, however, that while Kaladin does indeed “like” Shallan, I always thought of it more as admiration for her continuing to fight, despite her past and her pain. Because “she smiled, anyway.” I think he was inspired by that, possibly even awed by her resilience and determination. I think she is something of a beacon for him, which can help him find his way out of his own darkness.
“It is my solemn and important duty to bring happiness, light, and joy into your world when you’re being a dour idiot. Which is most of the time. So there.”
P: Warning, going to channel my inner Verin and blather a bit. So … fans have many and varied opinions on the characters in The Stormlight Archive. I have seen a good many people reference the way Shallan “teases” or “talks down to” Kaladin since their first encounter with the boots in Words of Radiance. These comments have ranged from irritation to downright hostility for Shallan, who people tend to forget, is still a teenager (and a traumatized one, at that).
But I digress … because what I want to talk about is the fact that our favorite little honorspren tends to tease and talk down to Kaladin quite often, as well. Yet most people see that as sweet and endearing. Granted, she’s bonded to Kaladin and she’s a spren, so the rules are different … but I want to take the great liberty of looking at the two sides of this from Kaladin’s possible perspective. He’s very fond of Syl and knows that she is still learning about, well, everything. He takes her jibes in stride, and often gives them back, in kind. He chastises her in this chapter about already having a mother, and it seems to me as if their banter is something familiar for Kaladin, something that he holds onto when he’s troubled. I know, I know … cue the dog GIF again. Bear with me.
Shallan, on the other hand, who uses her sharp wit and sharper tongue as a defense, and maybe (definitely) as something to hide behind, is demonized for her banter with Kaladin. I don’t feel as if she’s baiting him or insulting him, rather I feel as if she’s using the teasing to connect with him. They’re both kindred spirits in that they’ve experienced great pain and loss, and I truly feel that this is one way Shallan tries to befriend Kaladin. I believe that he gets it, too, which is why he’s drawn to her. Not out of romantic feelings, but because they are the same, and when you’re in the dark, it helps to have someone sit beside you and hold your hand.
Done. Let the scoffing commence. I will not be offend. Much.
Renarin blushed, then nodded. People had trouble following him sometimes, but that was merely because he tended to be so thoughtful. He’d be thinking about something deep, something brilliant, and then would only mention a part. It made him seem erratic, but once you got to know him, you realized he wasn’t trying to be esoteric. His lips just sometimes failed to keep up with his brain.
A: I love this moment. The bond between these brothers is so sweet to me. While Adolin might not be the only person who understands Renarin (*cough*Jasnah*cough*), he’s one of the few people who cares enough to sort out the mental leaps and enjoy the depth of Renarin’s musing.
P: Oh my Honor, yes. Adolin’s easy acceptance of Renarin just as he is, at any given point, speaks to my heart. It’s tough, to know you’re different and that others look at you strangely, maybe speak of you in hushed whispers … of your strangeness. Even Shallan, who has some serious issues herself, thinks not nice things about Renarin. So for Adolin to just accept his brother, to love him as he is, and to constantly lift him up … wow. That really hits home for me. Thank you, Brandon Sanderson, for Adolin Kholin.
A: Hear, hear.
Bruised & Broken
A: I want to start this unit with something we’ve discussed before, but which bears repeating. Brandon has taken great care to create realistically “broken characters” whose struggles resonate with some of his fans. He’s even taken it one step farther, and made the effect of their struggle the means by which magic can infuse the character. I just wanted to reiterate that using the in-world term “broken” does not mean that readers who experience these issues are somehow … lesser. Each of us, whatever our makeup, are valuable and unique.
(Bummer that the magic aspect doesn’t work IRL, though, eh? That’d be so cool.)
P: Totes a bummer because I, like Kaladin, would own the sky. *heart eyes* But seriously, I think this is an important point to cover both with Kaladin’s surprise at his good mood and Renarin feeling isolated again. We’ve seen Knights and squires heal themselves with Stormlight, right? The Lopen regrew a storming arm, for Honor’s sake, so the ability to heal oneself is A BIG DEAL ™.
And yet … Kaladin’s brands will not heal. His depression does not end. Renarin’s sight is healed, yet his “fits” (epilepsy, as diagnosed by Kaladin) are not. Shallan can heal some pretty intense physical wounds, as we’ll see in Part 3, yet she cannot heal her identity disorder. Teft could probably heal his firemoss hangover, yet he cannot heal his addiction. Why are some afflictions healed and some not? We do have WoBs on this subject, but to boil down Brandon’s thoughts, if it’s a physical affliction, it can be healed, but if it’s psychological (even if it regards Kaladin’s scars and how he views them), it cannot.
If Stormlight could heal one or all of these conditions which afflict our Radiants, that would imply that there’s something wrong with them that needs to be fixed. Brandon asks for fans, “when you discuss this, to be very careful about treating mental illness as a flaw as opposed to an aspect of a human personality,” and we take that request and that duty quite seriously. So again, we want to stress that “broken” in the context of this series, does not equate to “flawed” for readers who can relate. Let’s follow Lift’s philosophy and just call it being awesome.
It was difficult not to feel uplifted, even in the gloomy weather. He’d spent the entire sprint to Alethkar worrying—and then assuming—that he’d be too late to save Hearthstone. To find his parents alive … well, it was an unexpected blessing. The type his life had been severely lacking.
P: Depression and anxiety saddle a person with dark thoughts much of the time, and I am most definitely speaking from experience. Kaladin’s depression is depicted so accurately that I want to reach into this book and just hug him. He feels that he’s a failure—to his brother, his parents, his soldiers—because the depression lies to him. Constantly. Incessantly.
The very fact that he feels uplifted in this chapter is notable for a few reasons, I think: first, it’s the Weeping, and he is obviously afflicted with Roshar’s version of Seasonal Affective Disorder (SAD); second, because he just experienced an emotional reunion with his parents, primarily in regard to his failure to protect Tien, who grounded him; and finally, because there was that moment when his father was saddened at Kaladin’s fate as a Radiant, and as has been noted in previous chapter recaps, Kaladin thinks very highly of his father so the lack of approval has the potential to plunge him into a depression. Yet it does not, and that’s heartening. If you have any further thoughts on this particular topic, please let us know in the comments!
“Adolin, I was starting to fit in. With Bridge Four, with being a Shardbearer. Now, I’m in the darkness again. Father expects me to be a Radiant, so I can help him unite the world. But how am I supposed to learn?”
Adolin scratched his chin with his good hand. “Huh. I assumed that it just kind of came to you. It hasn’t?”
“Some has. But it … frightens me, Adolin.” He held up his hand, and it started to glow, wisps of Stormlight trailing off it, like smoke from a fire. “What if I hurt someone, or ruin things?”
A: I almost included the earlier conversation here, too, because at least some part of Renarin’s “brokenness” (i.e., the thing that creates space for a spren bond) may be related to the way his brain is wired. I left it in Relationships, though, because I love the closeness between the brothers. This one, though, I really want in Bruised and Broken, because I feel so much pain and fear from Renarin here. It’s more than mere uncertainty, which we’ve noticed before; there’s actual fear of what’s going on. With our 20/20 hindsight, we can now guess that part of the problem is that neither Renarin nor Glys are sure they’re either genuine or safe.
P: Additionally, his comment about fitting in with Bridge Four and being a Shardbearer is touching. Because he was loosening up a bit, and now he has this new label thrust on him, this new responsibility that feels too large. He was always in Adolin’s shadow, and in Dalinar’s, and to be completely frank, I think he was comfortable there. And now he is a Radiant (sort of, which is also causing stress); it’s no wonder that Renarin is so obviously worried about ruining things.
Flora & Fauna
Beneath him, the valley was clogged with vivim trees, which wound their spindly branches together to create an almost impenetrable wall of forestation.
A: I have nothing in particular to say about the trees, but it’s rather fun to be back in a land where plants grow profusely!
P: You know, I never really considered this before, but the Shattered Plains were pretty stark, so Alethkar does feel quite lush, in comparison. Not as much as a certain valley we’ll visit later, but certainly more so than the plateaus.
This was prime farmland; there was a reason why the Akanny region was prized by Sadeas. It might be a cultural backwater, but these rolling fields probably fed half the kingdom with their lavis and tallew crops. Other villages focused on raising large passels of hogs for leather and meat. Gumfrems, a kind of chull-like beast, were less common pasture animals harvested for their gemhearts, which—though small—allowed Soulcasting of meat.
A: Most of this is just interesting world-building; the Akanny region sounds equivalent to the US Midwest—the breadbasket. Don’t forget the pigs, of course—because I keep seeing people who, like me, suddenly notice a pig and wonder if that’s a continuity error. (They’re a vital part of the economy, apparently.) And… there’s the thing fans have been wondering about: yes, they do raise animals for their gemhearts. In this case, I assume gumfrems have heliodor gemhearts, since they’re used to Soulcast meat. (I wonder if gumfrem meat is edible? That would make them doubly productive!)
P: I envision humans bringing their weird livestock with them to Roshar, since pigs and chickens (all of the varieties!) and horses don’t exactly fit in with the local wildlife.
So alien. Creatures all covered in hair—which made him shiver to touch—with big glassy eyes. And those hadn’t even been real horses. For all their pedigree breeding, the horses they’d rode on campaign had just been ordinary Shin Thoroughbreds. Expensive, yes. But by definition, therefore, not priceless. Not like the creature before him now.
A: RYSHADIUM!!! Also horses.
P: I know it adds to their rarity, but I do wish that we’d seen more Ryshadium in the series to date. Well, there’s a lot of series yet to come, so perhaps I’ll get my wish!
Adolin often had felt he could read his own Ryshadium’s emotions. There had been a … bond between him and Sureblood. More delicate and indefinable than the bond between man and sword, but still there.
Of course, Adolin was the one who talked to his sword sometimes, so he had a habit of this sort of thing.
P: Okay… I was extremely sad when Sureblood died. But holy highstorm, when Adolin got choked up in this scene, I became quite verklempt. Which, as some of you surely know, is unusual for me. *ahem* But yeah, ow. And who’s to say that they didn’t share an actual bond, if Ryshadium are able to bond spren?
A: I absolutely love this whole scene between Adolin and Gallant. All The Feels, oh my. I felt pretty strongly that after the battle of Narak we needed to see him grieving for Sureblood, and I love that he goes to see Gallant partly on the pretext that Gallant is missing Sureblood too. ::sniffle:: I also adore the way Gallant seems to understand much of what Adolin says, and I think I have to quote something non-Oathbringer here. In her notes on the Rosharan system in Arcanum Unbounded, Khriss makes this comment:
…There is even a race of equines that—through the spren bond—have adapted to life on the planet and obtained a high enough level of self-awareness to nearly be named a sapient species.
A: Just how nearly?? Given that they choose their riders, are they fully sapient but don’t have the physiology to speak? I want to know!!
P: I was sorely disappointed that we didn’t see Gallant and Sureblood choose their riders. Imagine the gloryspren that Dalinar and Adolin would have attracted!
A: That is probably the one thing we didn’t get in Oathbringer that really bums me out. I want to see that scene so much! Well, like I always say… it clearly wasn’t necessary to the story being told. (But I wish it had been.)
P: Ya know what I’m thinking? I’m thinking that, perhaps, we’ll get a bonus flashback from Adolin or Dalinar regarding their Ryshadium during another’s flashback book. Much as we got sneaksy Kaladin flashbacks during Dalinar’s flashback book. Oops… veering off topic!
Places & Peoples
It held about two dozen structures, including two large storm sanctuaries where travelers could stay—but there were also many outer buildings. This was the highprince’s land, and an industrious darkeyes of high enough nahn could get a commission to work an unused hill out by itself, then keep a portion of the crop.
A: I don’t have anything profound to say about the sharecropping arrangement, just that it’s there. It’s also … interesting that it requires the appliccant to be both “industrious” and “high enough nahn” to obtain said commission. Also, did you notice how Sanderson snuck the “storm sanctuaries” in here, so that when he needs them later, we don’t snort at the oh-so-convenient appearance of something new?
P: When these popped up in this chapter, I had an, “Ahh, of course,” reaction. Because the concept of traveling anywhere that would leave people out in a highstorm—special wagons or no—has always squicked me out a bit. Those storms toss around boulders, people … boulders. Are your wagons boulder-proof? I didn’t think so. So my point—yes, I have one—is that with the far-reaching travel our plucky band of Radiants, etc. are doing in this book, it makes sense to see such a development.
Tight Butts and Coconuts
Several men held up small children to get a better look.
“Great,” Kaladin said softly. “I’ve become a menagerie act.”
In his mind, he heard Syl giggle.
A: LOL. Yes, Kaladin, you’re reduced to being the sideshow… Sorta like a whitespine in a cage, you might say?
P: And nearly as dangerous. Hmmm, do whitespine brood? But admittedly, if a flying, magical-sword-wielding hero showed up in my town, I’d be all a-goggle, as well.
“I know you’ve been busy lately fighting guys in white clothing and stuff, but I’ve been doing research. People lock their doors, but there’s plenty of room to get in underneath. I figured, since you don’t seem inclined to do any learning yourself, I should study. So if you have questions…”
P: And I’m admitting to some curiosity about when/where Syl has been spying, and on whom. You’re all thinking it, too. Pervs.
A: I … um … Oh, dear. Just where has Syl been sneaking around? I guess that thing with the Alethi bringing their wives along to war had to be useful for more than just the practical bookkeeping aspects….
His life just kept getting stranger. He tried—unsuccessfully—to banish the image of lying in bed with a woman, Syl sitting on the headboard and shouting out encouragement and advice.…
A: Oh, the priceless image! Followed promptly by:
“Lord Radiant?” the citylord asked from inside the front room of the small home. “Are you well?”
“Painful memory,” Kaladin said.
A: BAHAHAHAHAHA. Oh, Kaladin. For all your depression, you and Syl can make for some awesome comic relief!
P: Kaladin’s mortification at the thought of Syl sitting on the headboard and cheering him on is sheer wonderfulness.
Weighty Words
“You mink!” Adolin said. “You’ve managed to create a Radiant Blade? Why didn’t you tell us?”
“It just happened. Glys wasn’t certain he could do it … but we need more people to work the Oathgate … so…”
He took a deep breath, then stretched his hand to the side and summoned a long glowing Shardblade. Thin, with almost no crossguard, it had waving folds to the metal, like it had been forged.
A: There’s a question that, as far as I’m concerned, still hasn’t been answered: Did Renarin actually speak another Ideal offscreen, or is his relationship with Glys so weird that they just talk about what they need, and Glys finds a way to make it happen? Discuss!
Oh, also, “You mink!” is rather a fun twist on the Earth equivalent of, “You weasel!” or “You rat!” Great fit into the world as designed. Also also, Renarin has finally admitted that the Shardblade Adolin won for him is a source of pain, and can we please find someone else to carry it now thankyouverymuch.
P: Oh my Cultivation, yes! I’m quite curious to see the Ideals that Renarin has spoken, if any. I will admit that I would be somewhat reassured, what with the whole corrupted spren sitch, if I knew that he had at least spoken the First Ideal.
A: YES. It drives me spare that we don’t even know that much.
Renarin looked to him, then smiled. A pulse of Radiance washed through Adolin, and for an instant he saw himself perfected. A version of himself that was somehow complete and whole, the man he could be.
A: I feel like I should have awespren floating around me. The visual really gets me: Adolin seeing himself “perfected” for a moment. Is it how Renarin sees him? Or how he thinks he should be? Or is it bigger than that? Cultivation, or Adonalsium, or the God Beyond? Is it a version of him that Odium might fear? Am I reading too much into this??
Okay, probably I’m making way more out of this than was intended, but it seems so Significant. Paige, do you have anything to add to the muddle I’ve made of this?
P: Ummm, remember that you did ask. *cracks knuckles* Okay, so Renarin somehow sees things that will happen, with the exception of Jasnah’s lack of follow-through during the Battle of Thaylen City (thank the Stormfather for that!). Is that a Truthwatcher thing related to Illusion? Is it a thing of Sja-Anat, who we (some of us, at least) are speculating was the one to corrupt Glys, whatever his origin? Further, much as Renarin is able to use Progression to affect change on another, as when he heals Adolin, could it really be possible for him to lend his ability “to see” to another, if only for a moment? Could Renarin have actually shown Adolin a future version of himself? Or perhaps it’s simpler than that, cleaner and more down to Roshar. Perhaps … much as Shallan will draw Elhokar in Part 3 (It’s what you could be), maybe Renarin used Illusion and tried to show Adolin what he could be.
A: Mmmm. I like that.
P: It’s pretty much what you said, I think. I just ramble a bit more.
Only after Gallant trotted off did Adolin realize he’d used his right hand. He held it up, amazed, moving his fingers. His wrist had been completely healed.
A: During the serialization, Gepeto wondered a couple of times why Brandon made such a point of mentioning Adolin’s broken wrist. I couldn’t say anything back then, but… Aside from shutting the beta readers up about the continuity requirement to see the injury, it was the perfect setup for Renarin to show a Truthwatcher Surge in action. Such a twisty author, that Sanderson guy… making everyone wonder for the longest time whether Renarin was really a Truthwatcher, and then giving us this apparent confirmation, and then at the end of the book turning it all inside out. Oy.
P: Well, yeah … we were anticipating some kind of Radiant Renarin stuff, and this was the perfect opportunity for us to see the younger Kholin brother doing something cool. Participating in this beta read really drove home one simple fact for me: Never doubt the Sanderson.
A: Oh, and I do need to mention: whether he’s a “real Knight Radiant” or not, Renarin is most certainly a Surgebinder at this point.
P: You bet Dalinar’s tight butt, he is.
Murky Motivations
Fifty parshmen in warform—which was what the descriptions sounded most like to him—could easily have overrun this town and its handful of militia guards. They could have slaughtered everyone and taken whatever they wished; instead, they’d made a surgical raid.
A: Of course we’ll learn more about their motivation when Kaladin catches up with them, but it’s worth noting that he is (naturally) still thinking in terms of the battle of Narak, and assuming that all the transformed parshmen are now aggressive warriors.
P: Which he would do, of course, as he assumed that the Everstorm would transform all parshmen into “Voidbringers”. His shock at seeing them doing a relatively mundane activity such as playing cards was so well-written, as was his snap decision to allow them to capture him. However, in light of the end of Part 3, I rather wish that Kaladin hadn’t had the opportunity to form an attachment. *sad face forever*
A Scrupulous Study of Spren
“So maybe you could do that,” Kaladin said. “Find little, uh, bits of the wind? Or of Honor? Shape them?”
“Hmmm,” Syl said. “I would be an excellent mother. I’d teach the little spren to fly, to coast the winds, to harass you.…”
Kaladin smiled. “You’d get distracted by an interesting beetle and fly off, leaving them in a drawer somewhere.”“Nonsense! Why would I leave my babies in a drawer? Far too boring. A highprince’s shoe though…”
P: We do learn a bit more about spren procreation whilst in Shadesmar, and I find it incredibly interesting to think about the topic.
A: I guess we probably don’t need to dig in too deeply just yet. But the image of Syl teaching baby spren to harass Kaladin is perfection. Also… umm… foreshadowy, maybe? Is this a sly reference to (the standing theory about) Windrunner Shardplate being formed of windspren?
P: OMGOMG … let’s not get me off on a tangent about Shardplate. *heart eyes*
A: Baby Windspren Shardplate!!!! (Oh, sorry…)
P: #notsorry
He rested the Sylblade on his shoulder and stretched out his other hand, preparing his speech.
A: This is the first time we see the use of the term “Sylblade” for … well, Syl in the form of a Shardblade. I understand the value of coining a noun form to designate the various forms a bonded spren can take—we’ll eventually see things like “Patternblade” and “Sylspear”—but I’m still not 100% sure I like it.
P: I definitely like it. Because while it’s a blade, or a spear, it’s still Syl. So having Kaladin refer to his Blade or his Spear would feel strange, because … yeah, Syl. Imma take this opportunity to say how much I look forward to Adolin referring to his Mayablade.
A: ::heartthrob::
P: I concur.
Around the perimeter of the square, people hissed and whispered, anticipationspren flapping in an unseen wind.
A: ::snicker:: (It took me a minute to remember why I found this funny, and then I remembered Natam saying (discussing the time someone tried to kill Elhokar by cutting his balcony railing), “I was with the guys who ran out there and found him flapping in the wind, like the Stormfather’s own ears.”) So anyway, anticipationspren flap like streamers in a breeze, and eventually we’ll find out why.
P: Someone = Moash & Friends. *angry face*
A: True. ::scowl:: That part … not so funny.
Ryshadium were often called the “third Shard.” Blade, Plate, and Mount.
That didn’t do them justice. You couldn’t earn a Ryshadium simply by defeating someone in combat. They chose their riders.
But, Adolin thought as Gallant nuzzled his hand, I suppose that was how it used to be with Blades too. They were spren who chose their bearers.
A: I love this flash of insight. Dead Blades don’t get much choice, but when they were living, they did. And do. Kinda like Ryshadium
P: From the first time we saw Adolin talking to his Blade in WoR, I had the warm fuzzies. It was as if he knew that it was more than just a sword … knew that there was something about it that deserved his respect and gratitude. And that always spoke to me. That feeling is also present when he talks to Gallant, here.
Quality Quotations
- “It is my solemn and important duty to bring happiness, light, and joy into your world when you’re being a dour idiot. Which is most of the time. So there.”
A: I just have to say that “Happiness, Light, and Joy” was one of my suggestions for the chapter title. It was too much snarky fun to pass up.
P: Don’t get me started on chapter titles, or I’ll research who chose this one! (Okay, it was Matt.)
- The Knights Radiant had been founded by the Heralds, but they were also traitors. So … he was either a divine being of myth or a cretin one step above a Voidbringer.
- Syl zipped up to his shoulder. “Wow. She must be desperate living out here. I mean, look at you. Hair that hasn’t been combed since you flew across the continent, uniform stained with crem, and that beard.”
“Thank you for the boost of confidence.”
“I guess when there’s nobody about but farmers, your standards really drop.” - “You don’t trust anyone who carries a Shardblade, Syl. We’ve been over this. It’s not a mark of bad character to have bonded one of the weapons.”
“Yes, well, let’s have someone swing around the corpse of your sisters by the feet, and we’ll see whether you consider it a ‘mark of bad character’ or not.” - “And stop spying on people when they’re being intimate. It’s creepy.”
- “You’re as bad as Aunt Navani,” Adolin noted. “That’s why you came running, isn’t it? You smelled treats.”
The horse turned his head, looking at Adolin with one watery blue eye, rectangular pupil at the center. He almost seemed … offended.
Well, folks, that’s probably more than enough out of us, but it’s sure been fun—especially for a chapter with (seemingly) so little action! Next week we’ll hit Chapter 11, Dalinar’s second flashback chapter: The Rift. Join us in the comments for all the stuff we didn’t talk about yet!
If you’re by any chance at Anime Boston this weekend, see if you can find Lyndsey. She’ll be the blur in the Yuri costume.
Alice is, as usual, up to her eyeballs in a zillion small projects. She’s still chipping away at that promised article about the Kaladin album—fortunately the music is much more awesome than her organizational skills.
Paige spends her ~41 minutes of leisure time a day trying to write her own stories whilst two 15-pound, elderly cats clamor for her attention and scritches. As she doesn’t have four hands, the cats usually win that battle. She’s equally fanatical about reading fantasy and watching Yankees baseball. She lives in Truth or Consequences, NM, which is a real, weird place.
I don’t have anything to add just yet, but I need those notifications.
I really enjoyed the term “cosmerenauts” at the top of the article.
I have to say that when I read the whole “perfected version” line, I sorta tied it into Realmatic Theory. Specifically the definition often shown of the Spiritual Realm. I know there has been discussion on Kaladin’s scars not healing due to the assumption that he has internalized them so much that they have become part of his spiritweb. This would also describe a reason why Renarin can’t heal wounds that are too old later in the book. It is even described in relation to spren of items that have been broken slowly going from the concept of the item as it was to the concept of the item as it is.
This burst of “perfected version” could actually be a result of the Investiture burst that Renarin hit Adolin with showing Adolin a flash of himself in the Spiritual Realm. Renarin, when healing, uses Investiture to bring the Physical more into line with either the Cognitive (how the person views themselves) or Spiritual (the perfected person) views.
Just thoughts.
Edit: As I continue to think of it, Renarin’s healing strikes me as a version of manifestation we see in Shadesmar. We find out that Stormlight can be used to manifest the physical object into Shadesmar using its bead. Could Renarin’s healing be a related effect where he is manifesting the Cognitive version into the Physical Realm?
I am by no means as learned on the SA as you guys, but I took the “red lights” to mean 2 or 3 voidbringers in the group of parshmen, not spren. At this point, Kaladin is still thinking that ALL of the parshmen have been transformed into red-eyed voidbringers, so it is still a surprise that the vast majority of them do not have red eyes, but important that a few red-eyed voidbringers are leading the other parshmen. That was my take anyway.
Was Renarin’s healing of Adolin “inadvertent?”
Shallan reminds me of a husband or wife’s youngest sister who is in her mid 20’s. Some of the time she tries to act like a grown-up around her nieces/nephews. However, for this most part, she acts like an older sibling to her nieces/nephews. She is more likely to get her nieces/nephews into trouble than keep them out of trouble.
While Syl and Kaladin were at the Shattered Plains during the first portion of WoR, she would have had plenty of time to study. Their were the housing for the married officers. Also, there were brothels where Syl could learn many new tricks (pun intended).
Thanks for reading my musings.
AndrewHB
aka the musespren
Reread, yay!
Interesting thoughts about Jasnah and Dalinar’s shared ‘heresy’. Despite the word, and its obvious “God is dead” meaning for Dalinar now, I wonder if his childhood heresies were specifically questioning the Almighty, or just questioning some of the tenets of Vorinism, such as the whole martial culture. Young Soldier Dalinar seems kind of – empty, to me. Trying too hard. Loving soldiering but aware on some level of the moral bankruptcy of what he’s doing. Maybe?
Kaladin’s search for the Voidbringers was really ominous. We spent all Words of Radiance, and all the time sense, expecting the Everstorm to turn the Parshmen into Voidbringing monsters who would attack at once. And they…don’t. But during this section, it felt really ominous. I wondered what the Voidbringers were up to, what darker designs they had that kept them from attacking immediately.
In some ways, immediate all-out attack might have been easier than the ambiguity we’ll do with in this book, as we learn humans were the original Voidbringers. Have the Parshmen been corrupted by Odium, or liberated, or both?
On that note, it was really nice at this point in the story to see Kaladin embracing his role as KR and hero and source of inspiration. Sad to note that will be ripped away from him again in the course of the story, and he’ll be made to debate whether he is protecting the right people.
Re: teasing of Kaladin by Syl and Shallan – I’m with you, Paige, that Shallan’s teasing of him is a good thing, not a bad, and she shouldn’t be vilified by it. Kaladin’s relationship with his mother was also characterized by this kind of teasing banter and wordplay – it was something they both enjoyed. I think I’m recalling correctly that Kaladin actually references this relationship with his mother while talking to Shallan in Words of Radiance, on their trek through the chasms. Anyone else recall that?
Anyway: while I’m not and never was a shipper (I’m not, darn it! Really!), this aspect of the Shallan/Kaladin relationship was one that always rang true to me, and made me see them as a potential couple. The ability to do this kind of clever banter is something that Shallan and Kaladin have that Adolin really doesn’t. (In retrospect, while Kaladin might need this wordplay to tease him out of his own brooding, maybe what Shallan needs is someone for whom she doesn’t need to be “on” and witty with all the time, like Adolin.)
Yes. All the Yes. Braize to the yes. The Adolin/Renarin friendship, like the Jasnah/Renarin one, just heals my heart and fills me with ALL THE FEELS ALL THE TIME.
Got to do some work, more commenting in a bit!
Not something I’ve thought about before, but your highlighting it here made me question: so I’m on board with the assumption that humans brought pigs, chickens, horses, and possibly various minks to Roshar. But did those pigs have gemhearts before they were on Roshar? Have the other non-native creatures evolved to have gemhearts? What about humans themselves?
Must. Get. More. Ryshadium. Backstory! I was so excited by the (forthcoming) flashback where they see the Ryshadium with the musicspren (should be fun to see the discussion about THAT when we get to that chapter) – and then … nothing. I understand about dropping hints throughout the series until the big reveal, but that one just felt cruel.
For the record, when the text mentioned the “rectangular pupils” of Gallant, I thought, “oh, cool – Here’s another place Brandon made the Ryshadium different than normal horses!” Until I looked it up and learned that ALL horses have rectangular pupils, which thing I never had supposed. Now I just feel like a horse n00b, which, of course, I am. Was that a surprise to anyone else?
I’m on the autism spectrum, and when I read this, I had an epiphany, completely with angelic choir and everything >.<
I think Kal’s attraction to Shallan actually has to do with how he feels around her, that she helps him out of his depression. Which he hasn’t known since Tien died. It’s why he has a stone at the end of the book when he’s watching Shallan and Adolin. He recognizes that he can’t replace Tien with Shallan, even if it were still an option.
Otherwise, I love knowing that there are people who love Adolin as much as I do. I feel Sanderson is being very precise with what we see of him, so that he doesn’t have to use a lot of writing space right now to give us this image of an honestly *good* man.
Also, this week’s article is awesome, thank you.
piratet @3: When Kaladin and the transformed parshmen arrived at Relanor in Chapter 31, Khen didn’t know what Fused are. So it stands to reason that the parshmen had not been traveling with Fused.
Regarding the banter between Syl and Kaladin vs. Shallan and Kaladin, I think the main problems is that we saw Syl grew up with Kal. So we can much more easily buy into the playful banter between them; almost like they’re siblings. It feels earned.
On the other hand Shallan comes into play already evolved, as a “grow-up” (even though she’s not, really) and her banter with Kal feels unearned and sometimes mean and superior. I’d argue it also evolves as we see them interact more and more and we come to appreciate it. But it’s the difference between making (bad) jokes on your first day at a job or 5 years down the line. I can tell you from personal experience: the first one is a huge no-no, the second one can work really well.
On the topic of Renarin, I’m thinking of shared surges between orders as working on through different aspects because of the available combinations. Shallan’s illumination works with her transformation to change how a person views themselves. Renarin’s illumination combined with his progression to present Adolin with physical perfection, including health, therefore he’s healed.
We saw Lift heal and she didn’t need that apparition to heal, so obviously the Edgedancer’s progression works differently.
Re: pigs on Roshar being a thing – of course they are! We’ve always known there were Pigs in Space!!
Fijjit @2 – I think you’re right that the “perfected version” has to do with the Spiritual realm, but I don’t have a good enough feel for that to be confident saying anything more than “has to do with”! As we work our way slowly through the book, I’m hoping to piece together a better understanding.
What just struck me, though, is that if indeed healing is connected to how a person “sees” themselves – i.e. their Cognitive version – and the perfected version is the Spiritual one… Renarin just brought all three realms together for an instant. Could that be possible???? I’m going to have to think on this….
piratet @3 – It’s hard to say definitively. My biggest reason for assuming that the red lights are spren is that iirc, Kaladin never notices red eyes among the parshmen he travels with. Assuming this is the same group, either the red-eyed ones break off before he catches up, or … I dunno. Something else.
Austin @@.-@ – I don’t know if it was inadvertent or not. It struck me that way, because this has to be the first time he’s done it on someone else, and the scenario just read that way to me. Maybe it was more “spontaneous attempt to heal” rather than inadvertently sharing his Stormlight in such a way that it healed Adolin, and therefore intentional, but… that’s a distinction we’d have to check with Brandon.
Chris @6 – Interesting thought about Child!Dalinar. What if he questioned the warrior-glorifying aspects of Vorinism, and then when they started the conquest, he got a taste for the Thrill that overcame his questions? That would be really sad.
havokinetic @7 – I’ve always assumed that humans & the earth-like critters they brought with them simply don’t have gemhearts, and it’s only the ones native to Roshar that do. The Rhyshadium have connected with spren to the point that they show some changes, like their size and the stone hooves, but we still don’t know if they have gemhearts as well.
iguacufalls @8 – I know, right?? I completely flipped over the musicspren, and I. Want. More.
manavortex @9 – <3 <3 I love the proofs that he’s done it right. They come along every now and then, and I LOVE them. (Once at a signing, the first person to ask a question said, “Thank you for doing Steris right. I have Asperger’s…” and I don’t remember what else she said, but Brandon’s smile at that moment was sheer joy. She didn’t even ask if Steris had Asperger’s; she just knew, because he’d gotten it right.)
Austin @@.-@: Are you wondering if Renarin’s healing of Adolin was inadvertent? If so, I don’t believe it was. He very deliberately healed Adolin’s wrist.
IMO. ;)
@Alice, 14: Actually I made my husband drive 4 hours with me to the book fair in Leipzig just so I could thank Brandon for Steris… I don’t normally do that, it makes me feel kinda awkward when I’m like “omg your stuff means so much to me squeal fangirl”, but – I needed him to know. I loved the part where she cried because it wasn’t on the list and it was a good thing. I could sympathise so much.
And I love Renarin’s battle scene. Writing a battle scene from an autistic POV where neurotypical people are already in sensory overload? Brightly woven. I’m also bipolar (type 2), and Kaladin’s depression is so spot on that I want to up my SSRIs when his name falls – so he got two of mine right, means, I’m confident that the rest is right as well, means I can learn to relate to people through his characters… Which is amazing and a gift.
Maybe he remembers me. I think I was awkward. And I bought him a pretzel. :|
VladZ @12 – The problem with assuming that this is how Truthwatchers heal is that we still don’t know how much of what Renarin does is “normal” Truthwatcher Surgebinding. We know he has some form of Progression, but we haven’t seen anything we know is Illumination. More, we don’t know what effect Glys’s corruption has on it. Even more, we don’t know yet that Glys is actually a corrupted Truthwatcher-spren, whatever they’re callled. It’s my working theory, but as far as I know, it hasn’t been confirmed. So… yeah. It’s a good theory, and may prove true, but I’m not going to bet the rent money on it yet. :D
ETA: After combing through the Shadesmar sections recently, I theorized (or maybe just… guessed) that the mistspren we see there are the ones who form the Truthwatcher bond. Would those reasonably appear as snowflakes? or would a corrupted version appear as a snowflake, anyway? I can see a potential connection, but … well, yeah. Theories FTW, I guess!
Re depression and Kaladin feeling uplifted in this chapter: from my own experience with depression, it’s not as if one doesn’t ever feel other emotions while clinically depressed. It’s more an…overlay, sometimes heavier and sometimes lighter, but constantly there, muting and pressing down on everything else. You can have moments of fun, laughter, interest, excitement, all of it…but more muted, and sometimes the overlay is *really really heavy* and you can’t be conscious of anything else.
Nice to see Kaladin free of it, for now.
Stormlight does seem to help him – I wonder if that’s simple endorphin/adrenaline release?
Getting into potentially problematic territory – with Stormlight and healing of psychological conditions, I do wonder. It’s not that Stormlight *can’t* heal Kaladin’s brands, it’s that it *is* restoring him to match his self-image. The brands will change when his view of himself changes. But what about his depression? Is that a part of who he is and how he sees himself? I wonder because during my own bout of serious depression (about 2 and a half years) I often felt really alien to myself. I felt like I didn’t know who this person, that was me, *was*. I did not feel like myself. Would Stormlight have ‘healed’ me then? It’s such a strange thing, because it did feel alien, and I did feel broken. At the same time, it taught me a lot and made me a better, more empathetic person…enough that I value the experience, in retrospect.
A useless question, I know, except it made me reflect on how much I respect anyone struggling with depression, and most especially those who weren’t ‘lucky’ enough to only have depression for a time, like me (the hardest time of my life); but instead have had to deal with it as a lifelong, ongoing struggle. And my apologies for any insensitivity or pain my talking about it might have caused anyone.
Getting back to the story, it’s why Kaladin’s moods may be hard to read about, but they don’t annoy me as they have some readers. I can relate. So again, it’s really nice to see him feeling good.
On Renarin: Paige, your comments about him probably being comfortable having been in the shadows really resonates. Thanks for that insight. And most of us can probably relate to his joy about having finally found a place where he fits in.
Re: “Pigs…in…space!”, havokinetic@7 asks if pigs had gemhearts before coming to Roshar. Um…they don’t have gemhearts now, do they? That was the chull-like gumfrem thingies, not pigs…right?
Funny that Kaladin thinks of mammals and birds as weird and alien, lol. If you only knew, Kaladin….
Re: Ryshadium – yes, how sentient are they? What about aviar, are they sentient? (Different world, I know, but they’re also weird and invested and do they have a local equivalent of a sprenbond?) And anyway, spren who bond with humans get to be sentient themselves as a result, in the the Physical Realm. What do spren who bond with Ryshadium get? or spren who bond with greatshells?
Also, greatshells get to grow to bigger sizes than the cube-square law would allow, right, because of their spren? Which almost sound like those critters are using something like the Surge of Gravitation all the time, partially lashing themselves upward to reduce the effects of gravity.
So…I’m hoping for Surgebinding Ryshadium by book 10. I’m just saying! #loonytheory
Re: Syl shouting advice and encouragment to Kaladin while, um, amorously engaged….bwah hah ha! All the snickering. I am 10.
Re: Weighty Words – yes. How many Ideals has Renarin spoken (if any?)? How soon can a proto-Radiant have a spren/Shardblade? From Szeth’s experience with the Skybreakers, he’s on…what…the Third Ideal before he gets a Shardblade? We don’t know how far Shallan is, really, and Kaladin got his on his Third, so…dunno. Seems really unlikely that Renarin is all the way to the Third Ideal already, though.
Re: Renarin’s light image of Adolin, I also read it Realmatically – that it was a Cognitive or more likely Spiritual Image of him, a sort of Platonically-influeced Ideal of Adolin. The implications of such are beyond me right now, though.
Based on Shallan’s needing a Connection to make images, though, it implies (as if we didn’t already know) that Renarin is Connected with Adolin. *sniffle*
Murky Motivations – re: sadness over Kaladin bonding with the newly awakened Parshmen. No. No, that’s all Moash. Kaladin’s bonding with them will be a good thing, eventually. It will! IT WILL, pretty please Brandon? Because it’s important for us to remember that the Parshmen were victims in all this. That doesn’t mean everybody should just give into Odium (stupid Moash). That just re-victimizes them again. The Listeners were willing to give up everything to win free of Odium and their ‘gods’ (the Unmade? Or their ancestors who make them into Fused?). It’s such a weird thing – it’s GOOD that the Parshmen were awakened. But now they are being used by Odium and their ‘gods’ again. They are still being victimized and abused.
I very much approve (read: LOVE) of “Sylblade” and similar constructions. However, Syl pointing out that all of Kal’s weapons are ‘alive’ and always have been is…um…weird and squicky feeling. “Hey, that chair you’re sitting in? Person. That stick you’re whittling? Person. Did you get the stick’s consent to be whittled? Because maybe it wants to be a”…oh, y’all, I didn’t even intend to lead into an ‘I am a stick’ joke, it just happened, I swear…!
Happiness, Light, and Joy would have been an amazing chapter title!
Sorry for my many posts y’all, and their wordiness. Um, don’t kick me out, ok?
Of course pigs would be tough enough to be easy to keep on Roshar. I shudder to think of how much work it was to keep horses alive.
The perfected vision of Adolin reminds me of the effects of atium, gold, and electrum allomancy. I think they work by drawing on the Spiritual Realm.
@2 Fijjit , @14 Wetlandernw and @18 chaplainchris1
From what I understand I believe cosmere healing works by returning your physical self (physical you) to the spiritual self (ideal you) that is filtered through your cognitive self (how you see yourself). WoB explaining this below
https://wob.coppermind.net/events/103-salt-lake-city-comic-con-2014/#e1009
Regarding merging the realms, from what I have seen it is possible to peak/ascend into the spiritual realm without bringing them together. whited out Mistborn spoiler
Elend did that when he duralumin burned atium
https://wob.coppermind.net/events/80-shadows-of-self-london-uk-signing/#e5335
https://wob.coppermind.net/events/76-shadows-of-self-chicago-signing/#e6304
@6 chaplainchris1
Personally (I have nothing concrete to back it up), I think the example Dalinar later gives of questioning his swordtrainer about how to wrap a takama is an example of how his heresy was from since he was a child. I feel based on that story, Dalinar was the type to question anytime something didn’t fully sit right with him. Now this is in conflict with how we see him ready and willing to go anywhere his brother tells him as long as he gets to fight, but I do not think it is as much as a conflict as it first appears. Him fighting sits well with him. He gets to do what he wants. The takama wrap got in the way, so he questioned it. I could see him questioning some religious tenants that seemed to “get in his way”
@7 havokinetic
I do not believe animals like pigs have evolved gemhearts as I would imagine it would be mentioned or exploited, but that is all conjecture on my part. Ryshadium do seem to have a bond with spren so that would imply a gem heart, but I think at this stage there is too little we know yet to determine.
@11 Paige Vest
That is a good point, however I believe the stormform who also have red eyes are referred to as Regals, so it doesn’t necessarily mean it had to be the fused that potentially were with them temporarily. I would also put forward that it could potentially have been the fused, but they did not take the time to introduce themselves or the spren did not feel it necessary to explain yet. Just throwing around some ideas.
@12 VladZ
We did not see the perspective of Gawn when he was healed by Lift, so we do not know whether or not he experienced the same thing as Adolin as Adolin’s healing was from his perspective and he was the one that saw his perfected self.
@17 Wetlandernw
I do not believe we need to worry too much based on the spren appearances in shadesmar linking up with their appearances in the physical realm. Theoretically the reachers are the willshaper spren, and timbre is theoretically one of them. There is the pulsing that matches, but otherwise their appearances are quite different. So I personally do not feel the potential truthwatcher spren mistlike form has to match 1 to 1 with how they appear in the physical realm for them to be linked.
@18 chaplainchris1 again lol
So minor nitpick to clarify something. Sentient means able to perceive or feel things. All animals on the planet are sentient. Sapient on the other hand means the ability to think and to reason. That is where humans typically come in. So Ryshadium are sentient, but Khriss is saying they may almost be sapient. That is a good question however, what do the spren of greatshells, skyeels, and ryshadium get out of the deal?
Szeth has sworn three and is in the process of the fourth (life before death, hold to law, swear to dalinar, cleanse the shin)
Shallan is at her fourth ( life before death, I am terrified, I killed my father, I killed my mother)
As to Renarin, I have no idea lol though radiants tend to (in my opinion) start using their second surge more around the second oath and more fully at the third.
@20 Scath regarding the sentience/sapience nitpick: yes, you’re correct. I blame 1980s Legion of Super-Heroes comic books and other sci-fi which made me think of various alien species as being ‘sentient beings’ if they could think. I promise they said sentient, not sapient lol! I’ll try to do better in future.
Nitpick regarding Shallan’s Ideals: I don’t believe we know for sure that every time Shallan has uttered a significant truth (like “I am terrified”) that it was the same as swearing an Ideal (even though we know Lightweavers *do* utter truths rather than ideals). The “I am terrified” doesn’t seem to have triggered an intense surge of Stormlight as we’ve seen with Kaladin on swearing a new Ideal (but I don’t think Szeth’s did, either). Moreover, we don’t know how far Shallan had progressed as a child, but it was far enough to be able to use Pattern as a Shardblade, which again is not something Kaladin could do after the First Ideal. Nor could a Skybreaker, if they’re not even bonding their Highspren until time for the Third Ideal.
So either it works differently for Lightweavers, or Shallan regressed and had to reswer some Ideals/tell new truths, or both, or…something.
Personally I think “I am terrified” got her moving again but didn’t count as a new oath. Killed my father and Killed my mother probably would. I think Shallan has done three Ideals, like Kaladin and Szeth, and that’s why she doesn’t have Shardplate yet. (I know some think she does already have it, but I’m not convinced yet – I do think she’s on the brink, like Kaladin is, but we’ll discuss those points later, I’m sure!)
On my mobile so limited in what I can do but regarding shallan there is a words of Brandon that as of words of radiance shallan is one more oath than kaladin. Kaladin had reached his third oath so that makes shallan at her fourth. She did regress in her radiancy. That’s why pattern did not die. She didn’t break her oaths but pattern became ””stupid” in the physical realm. So her reswearing the oaths brought the strength back. Regarding the surge of stormlight, not all radiants experience that with each oath sworn as we see that does not occur every time shallan admits a truth as well as I’m pretty sure there is a Word of brandon on that too but that one I’m iffy about and will have to do some digging to be sure
Thanks Alice & Paige,
This chapter was one of my favorites of the preview chapters because of the interaction between Adolin and Renarin. Also, this chapter did a great job of continuing to flesh out the brothers and how they understand and relate to one another. Unlike some other Adolin fans, I don’t need Adolin to drive every major plot or be the focus of every major arc. Instead, it was quite satisfying to see Adolin the way Brandon wished to show him to us: Adolin quietly and privately displaying his grief over Sureblood; Adolin’s quick understanding of Renarin’s not-so-esoteric horseshoe comment demonstrating that he has a history of listening to (and not ignoring) Renarin and knows how to read him; another display of Adolin’s awareness of his brother by surmising Renarin’s embarrassment about his new abilities; etc.
Renarin healing his brother with Regrowth here was also a great effort on Brandon’s part to distract those of us who thought that there was something off about Renarin claiming to be a Truthwatcher at the end of Words of Radiance. Going into OB, I was rather skeptical of Renarin and felt he wasn’t what he claimed to be due to lack of evidence; and I must admit that this chapter fooled me into thinking that we had finally received proof that Renarin/Glys were what they said they were. After all, Renarin was a Surgebinder who had used Regrowth (without breathing on Adolin, like an Edgedancer would have) and Glys turned into a Shardblade. The reader had no reason to believe that anyone other than a Truthwatcher would use Regrowth in that way and wield a Shardblade. Great job in fooling me, Brandon!
chaplainchris1 @13. Yeah. A Muppet Show reference. One of my all-time favorites. I could so see the Stormfather as the voice that always ends the episodes of the Muppet Show Veterinarian’s Hospital sketch. The characters always look all over when the voice starts speaking. That is so like the way the Stormfather made his presence known when he officiated the wedding.
KiManiak @23. After OB, I do think that Renarin is a Truthwatcher. The difference is somehow he was able to bond with Glys who was corrupted by Sja-Anat. Renarin is still a Truthwatcher. It is just that (IMO) bonding with a a corrupted Truthwatcher spren will alter the effect of the Surges that a Truthwatcher spren enables its KR to use. I believe that unlike other Truthwatchers, Renarin has the ability to see the future. It is not perfect, as Renarin found out to his relief. Otherwise Jasnah would have killed him and Dalinar would have allowed Odium to take Dalinar’s pain. Thus becoming Odium’s champion with 9 shadows coming from him.
Based on Odium reaction, he never thought Dalinar would resist. I am convinced a) that Odium somehow penetrated Honor’s vision that Stormfather played for Dalinar when he saw Odium’s champion; and b) Odium wanted Dalinar to see what Dalinar was “destined” to become in the future. It just goes to show that even Odium’s ability to see the future is not perfect.
I just realized something. During the 1st 2 books, we saw 3 Unmade. The Thrill (although it was not explicitly stated that the Thrill was an Unmade). We also saw the effects of Re-Shephir (in one of Dalinar’s vision) and the effect of Sja-Anat (in another vision). When the present day characters confronted all three as Unmade, they learned something completely different than what they thought of those 3 creatures. With regards to the Thrill, Dalinar realized that it was a mindless force that could (with extreme effort and a suitable prison) be contained. Re-Shephir and Sja-Anat, two of the more intelligent/cognizant, Unmade, were quite different than the visions and past research (in the form of scholarly work) made them to be. When Shallan confronted Re-Shephir, Shallan realized that Re-Shephir was curious about human kind. More than that, however, Re-Shephir was scared of being trapped again. Ultimately, she ran rather than fight Shallan to the death. If she fought further, maybe she would have been successful in tearing the away the bond between Shallan and Re-Shephir and replacing herself with Pattern.
(Query, even if Re-Shephir was successful in breaking the Nahel bond between Shallan and Pattern, could she have imposed such a bond on Shallan if Shallan was unwilling to accept such a bond. So far, there is zero indication that the KR bonds are anything but voluntary. It requires acceptance on the part of the KR to accept the bond in the first palce and to advance to the different levels.)
Likewise, Sja-Anat does not kill Shallan and her party when they use the Oathgate. She just makes sure they get transported to Shadesmar. She also is willing to defect from Odium’s side (or at least she is making overtures to that effect. Only time will tell if she is trying to play Team Honor).
I think the actuality of these 3 Unmade was a very nice swerve by Brandon.
Thanks for reading my musings.
AndrewHB
aka the musespren
Ah the hand… I DID wonder why Brandon was seeing fit to mention it so often. I figured out early on it would have a purpose though I couldn’t guess what it would be. I obviously love this chapter because it is one of the too rare chapters where Adolin muses internally for a few moments.
My thoughts, upon reading, were however very different than most readers. While I do love the Adolin/Renarin relationship, I was sad at seeing Adolin not being able to grief properly, being forced to plaster a fake smile on his face to take, once again, the role of the perfect strong never bothered brother to pep-talk Renarin. I just want to rip this mask out and to have Adolin stop ignoring he has pains too, stop making everyone else be more important than him. So while it is what some love about the character, it is what makes me sad because, sometimes, in life, it’s got to be about us. It can’t always be about others.
I did wonder about the perfected vision Adolin sees of himself. When he gets healed, later in the book, he doesn’t speak of having a vision: it was just this one time. My first impressions have been Renarin was pushing, inadvertently, what how he sees Adolin into him as he healed him. I didn’t think it came from Adolin as Adolin seems not to think he is worth much. I however do not have a better explanation for it, so I am open to all suggestions.
This being said, I loved the comparison in between Syl/Shallan when it comes to the banter. I do agree the fandom is, on average, hard on Shallan: disliking her for her banter and her wit. These were aspects of her character I actually liked, but I never made the comparison in between Shallan doing it to Kaladin and Syl doing the same.
@23: I really do not think anyone ever stated they wanted Adolin to be the “to drive every major plot or be the focus of every major arc”: this is a gross over-statement and I find it hurtful to read it.
What some Adolin fans have been saying is they didn’t feel OB developed the character in both a satisfying and an interesting way. Some of us feel he was very bland in this book: a lot of events were happening to him and/or around him, but his character never had a reaction other than “I will do what I can” which always concluded itself in “I also succeed at everything I try, even when I fail, I still succeed”. So while others loved it, as a reader having rooted for a stronger, better and more in-depth narrative for the character, one which would explore his darker zones, his flaws as opposed to always showing him as the shining beacon of perfection I was disappointed. I also felt this lack of hardships, this lack of flaws harms the introduction of his Mayablade (love the name!), it makes an amazing arc fall flat because I have read too many commentaries of readers not believing it or not wanting it.
I however need to say I personally never stated I wished for Adolin to be The major character of Every Arc and narrative as well as being The Sole Focus of the book. I did however state I wanted Adolin to get one arc which would belong to his character and this, he didn’t get.
I greatly enjoyed Shallan and Kaladin’s insult-off when they first “met,” though I didn’t take it for a portent of romantic or sexual chemistry, don’t object to her continued snarking at him (especially “brood them into submission.”) But I greatly enjoy Syl’s banter with him as well, though Syl doesn’t out-compete her as Snarkmaster of Eastern Roshar.
“It is my solemn and important duty to bring happiness, light, and joy into your world when you’re being a dour idiot. Which is most of the time. So there.” I need my own Syl. But not if she would remind me that “People in relationships are happier.” I known, ladyspren. Don’t rub it in. I get enough of that from other humans, like this exchange between two friends with regard to me: Friend 1: We’ve gotta get you married! Friend 2: No, we’ve gotta get her happy! Friend 1: Same thing!
I like her referring to his battle last book as being “busy fighting guys in white clothing and stuff.” Sounds really epic, not. X-D
My main source of disappointment with Oathbringer was how little time we spent observing or learning about Roshar’s flora, fauna, and small rural economies. This chapter is one of the few highlights in that regard.
To a man from a farming village, nothing was more distressing than an empty silo at planting time. Slight chills there.
Thank you for the clarification on “brokenness.” The word speaks to the way I and some other disabled people feel — useless, worthless, irredeemably flawed — even though I know that this isn’t Sanderson’s message, and that he really is great at portraying disabilities, at least mental ones. Kaladin’s depression, including the times of overcast joy* that chaplainchris1 describes, resonates a lot with me.
I’m neurotypical (I think), but I strongly related to Steris as well. I’m visually impaired and can’t detect the face and body language that is so much a part of communication, so I share her feeling of struggling to navigate social interactions by the rules I learn, feeling unable to understand them the way I believe “normal” people do. I hope it’s OK to relate to someone whose relevant demographic I’m not in.
*Kaladin thinks of it later as rising briefly into light, then falling back into darkness. I think of it as swimming to the warm, bright surface water of a lake while the cold undercurrent of despair still flows below and eventually pulls me back down.
One thing I left out of the article (partly because it’s so small and partly because we talked too much as it was) still hits me as a very thoughtful moment:
We talked about how Adolin reads Renarin so well, but we didn’t mention how well Renarin reads Adolin. All Adolin said was that he’d come to see Gallant because Dalinar was busy, but Renarin jumps straight to the loss of Sureblood. It also makes me chuckle just a little bit because that one jump has several layers to it. In one way, it’s shockingly tactless. In another, it’s a perfect example of Renarin skipping over half his thoughts to only say the last bit. And Adolin isn’t the slightest bit bothered by it, because Renarin is being Renarin. He doesn’t respond out loud, either because he’s not ready to or he doesn’t need to, but you can tell he appreciates his brother’s thoughtfulness.
Unrelated – I think part of the reason I took Renarin’s healing as inadvertent is this:
It seemed to me, though of course it’s personal opinion until WoB says otherwise, that Renarin hadn’t intentionally done anything. That the pulse of Radiance was a spontaneous thing, just an instinctive sharing of what he held with the brother who, as always, reached out to him. That he’s then a little worried that he shouldn’t be shoving Stormlight into people (even his brother) without asking first. And that he left before he even realized that he’d healed Adolin’s wrist. YMMV.
@14, 18 I confused the hogs from one sentence with the gumfren in the next. My mistake.
@26: I do not think it is wrong to relate to a character representing a demography we aren’t a part of. Characters each speak to us in various ways and, sometimes, it is just one aspect of a given character which draws us in. For instance, I started to root for Adolin in chapter 28 in WoR when he speaks of having no friends, no one to lean onto, no one to stand up for him, no one who thought him important enough to fight for him. I am not a rich Prince nor am I a soldier, but I am a human being who constantly struggled with friendship who, despite talking to a lot of people, never really had this one close friend (or even friends at all these days). Hence, I strongly related to this aspect of the character.
I thus do not think it ill-advised you would relate to Steris difficulties into navigating into the world due to you being visually impaired even if Steris reasons are different. Steris might have been written as a light autistic character, I do find her to be very easy to relate to for many people, even those who aren’t on the spectrum. After all, do we need to be autistic to sometimes feel out of place? To not say the right thing at the right time? To bore people out with our talking? To not succeed in relationships? I think not, hence I do think Steris is a wonderfully thought off and incredibly well-written character.
@27: Great post, I wondered at the time if we would see Adolin request his drawing? I wish he did. I wish he did ask for a memento of Sureblood. You are however perfectly right in saying Renarin reads Adolin easily here and guesses the real reason why he is down there, not being fooled by talks of Adolin wanting to check on Gallant. Sure, there was that, but Adolin was actually trying to grieve which isn’t something we see him do often.
I also agree the healing seemed unintentional which may explain why Adolin got this vision as this doesn’t happen later on. Twice we are in Adolin’s POV as Renarin heals him: the first time he gets a vision, the second time he speaks of a cold rush into him and of pains receding, but the healing wasn’t enough to fully heal him.
It raises all sort of questions such as how much of his healing does Renarin control and is there a limit to the damage he can heal?
@@@@@21 chaplainchris1
No worries, was not meant to be critical. Just regular spren are sentient while radiant spren gain sapience when they bond, so didn’t want confusion to come up later if the two were thrown around later
Regarding my mobile response with shallan’s oath number (Kaladin was at his 3rd oath at the end of WoR so Shallan should be at her 4th), below is the WoB I was referring to
https://wob.coppermind.net/events/156-words-of-radiance-lexington-signing/#e2845
Here are two WoB regarding Shallan’s regression, one paraphrased, the other verbatim
https://wob.coppermind.net/events/156-words-of-radiance-lexington-signing/#e2846
https://wob.coppermind.net/events/222-words-of-radiance-houston-signing/#e5609
So pattern was never dead, but the bond did regress, so she had to swear the oaths again to strengthen it
@@@@@23 KiManiak
” it was quite satisfying to see Adolin the way Brandon wished to show him to us: Adolin quietly and privately displaying his grief over Sureblood; Adolin’s quick understanding of Renarin’s not-so-esoteric horseshoe comment demonstrating that he has a history of listening to (and not ignoring) Renarin and knows how to read him; another display of Adolin’s awareness of his brother by surmising Renarin’s embarrassment about his new abilities; etc. “
Well said, I whole heartily agree. That’s a great thing about Adolin. Because he is so open ended, many people can see many different things in him. Some can want more, some can want less, and some can like him just the way he is and every single one of those is perfectly valid and understandable. I personally love how Adolin is in Oathbringer. I think he fits perfectly. But I have stated my feelings in the past, so I see no reason to go through it again on a new thread.
@@@@@ 24 AndrewHB
I think if Shallan was overwhelmed at first and left herself open by accident, then Re-Shephir could have not only broke the bond between Shallan and Pattern, but then taken over Shallan. We see with the listeners, that all they have to be is open to the change, for the ancient ones to take them over completely and become the fused. So Shallan could have potentially become a fused unmade in my opinion.
@@@@@27 Wetlandernw
I agree, I too love how this scene really starts to make Renarin shine. I feel like Renarin is like a Bob Ross painting. We get a little brush stroke here, a little brush stroke there and little by little suddenly we see a tree, and then a whole landscape. This is the first time we really see Renarin begin to open up about his uncertainty and why it is so upsetting for him. Everyone else right now is worried about the world ending, but the world has been ending for Renarin repeatedly since Way of Kings and even before that. That even during this time of uncertainty and pain, Renarin can reach out to Adolin to check on his feelings, and heal him both physically and (somewhat) emotionally is a wonderful moment to me for Renarin. I can’t wait to see and learn more of Renarin. The back five books can’t come soon enough :)
So I read the post yesterday and then got busy with real life *sigh* and forgot to come back and comment.
Anyway, I love how Syl and Kaladin argue like siblings. And I like the way Kaladin and Shallan interact. It reminds me of a lot of my friendships with guys in HS actually. And for me at least, most of those weren’t romantic so I didn’t expect it to necessarily be that way for Kal and Shallan.
The interaction between Renarin and Adolin is so wonderfully genuine. I love that they always seem to want to help the other, though it shows in different ways.
I was one who thought the healing-which I agree with Paige, it was deliberate-meant Renarin was a normal Truthwatcher after all. I wonder if the image part of that is normal for Truthwatchers or if it’s a function of Glys being corrupted? We just need to have more information. 20 years from now we’ll all be ‘wow, what great foreshadowing in book 3 that now makes sense’, but I don’t like waiting!
To my understanding: gemheart=native, no gemheart=not native (invasive?) which makes me wonder about bugs-do lurgs have gemhearts? Or is it only for larger species? And I wanted so much to see more about Ryshadium bonding and musicspren. I hope we get those sometime. Maybe Adolin will get to bond another one.
Yes, they are. Renarin isn’t sure of it in Oathbringer but I am. Certainly he doesn’t have a seizure in this story.
You could feed them to pigs, if not.
Brandon clearly isn’t comfortable writing it, but she inevitably has seen him masturbate by now. He’s a storming male teenager.
If you think about it, that’s very Edgedancer-ey. “Remember those who have been forgotten.”
18. chaplainchris1: “That doesn’t mean everybody should just give into Odium (stupid Moash).” I’m sure you meant to type “Stupid Nale.” Easy mistake to make.
@26, AeronaGreenjoy: “… Sanderson’s message, and that he really is great at portraying disabilities, at least mental ones. Kaladin’s depression, including the times of overcast joy* that chaplainchris1 describes, resonates a lot with me.” BWS does physical disabilities too, notably two amputees and a paraplegic in the SA.
What’s with all the giphy links? IF you want to include a GIF, why not actually include it in the article? I for one never bother clicking through to the graphics–too clunky.
BTW, one can just click “Subscribe” at the bottom to get notifications, without posting content-free messages.
@18, chaplainchris1
I wonder – is that how Renarin sees Adolin, maybe?
The poor guy. He keeps to have everything crumbling around him, and the whole time he’s walking around waiting to be finally killed by Jasnah. Being autistic myself, I can actually see the fact that he doesn’t get killed causing a new wave of anxiety for him… it was, Steris-ly speaking, “on the list”.
@20, scath
That’s a character trait he shares with Jasnah, and something that’s also common in all autistic people I know. “That’s how it is” is not a valid reason! Maybe it’s part of where Renarin got it?
@26 AeronaGreenjoy:
As a member of the demographic I grant thee permission. Carry thee writ with thee at all times to shove it up the bottom of anyone denying you the right to relate to whomever thee please.
@31 stormlightchick
so as per WoB, not all creatures native to Roshar have gemhearts.
https://wob.coppermind.net/events/88-salt-lake-comiccon-fanx-2016/#e756
@32 Carl
Do you have any other information to back up your certainty that Renarin’s epilepsy is cured other than we just have not seen it on screen in Oathbringer? Renarin does mention being concerned about having both types of fits (epileptic and future sight) during the battle at Thayla.
@33 manavortex
I agree, it must have felt like a literal Sword of Damocles hanging over Renarin’s head, feeling that there is something wrong with him beyond his control and that he will die for it at the hand of someone he dearly loves.
That very well could be. That would add depth to the growing bond between Dalinar and Renarin, and the existing bonds between Dalinar and Jasnah, and Jasnah and Renarin
Lol at your response to AeronaGreenjoy :)
@@@@@ 25 Gepeto –
I don’t believe Adolin is wearing a mask. Or Renarin for that matter either. These are two brothers who are in-tune with one another. I see Adolin grieving. I don’t believe he is hiding it from Renarin or giving Renarin a pep talk. They are just sharing.
People grieve in different ways. Adolin is grieving his own way, i.e., by being with Gallant.
As for Renarin, he knew that Adolin is grieving. He suggested that Adolin ask Shallan to draw Sureblood for remembrance.
There are no masks here. Just two brother sharing.
35: I read the scene differently… Adolin is about to choke in his own sobs when Renarin steps in and what does he do? He smiles at his brother, moves the conversation to Renarin and does his best to brighten up his brother’s spirit without any care about his own. So while I do agree Renarin does realize Adolin is probably grieving, Adolin is not allowing Renarin to see him grief. Adolin is never allowing anyone to see him show any weakness, so yeah, I do think there is a mask. Kind of. Not Shallan-like masks and maybe the word “mask” is not exactly the right one, but I do not think we have ever seen Adolin show Renarin any form of vulnerability.
The way I read them is Adolin is the older protective stronger brother who believes it is his task to care and nurture his younger brother. Renarin is the youngest sickly brother who looks up to Adolin and adores him instead of being jealous of his capacities. Both love each other, both read each other well, probably better than the other realizes, but both are hiding things from their sibling.
Renarin is hiding the truth about Glys, his visions and he didn’t confide in Adolin when he started to become a Radiant which is something many sibling would see as a betrayal, but not Adolin. On his side, Adolin is hiding his doubts, his insecurities and all of the time where he feels he is not up to the task. Just as I doubt Adolin saw through Renarin becoming a Radiant before he was told, I also doubt Renarin knows how little his own wonderful brother thinks of himself.
So yeah, they are sharing, but they aren’t sharing everything.
As an interesting tidbit, this scene was added after the beta read to give a quick run down of Renarin’s powers. WoB below:
https://wob.coppermind.net/events/116-general-reddit-2017/#e8649
edit: oh! also I wanted to add how I liked how we get to see a bonus of Renarin being so good at progression results in him regenerating even faster than most radiants. Him taking that thunderclast smash like a champ was both awesome and hilarious :)
About plant life on Roshar. I really liked this bit:
He passed open rockbuds and wiggling vines, gutted and fat from the constant rainfall. Following the Weeping, they’d often find as many dead plants around the town as they did after a strong highstorm.
The plants drink as much as they can after highstorms. They have to survive a while without rain afterwards after all. The weeping is only once a year. Plants don’t adapt to the weeping. They just drink until they burst and die.
A very nice bit of world building in my opinion.
About Adolin’s healing:
I was waiting for this discussion because I was just confused about it. Did Renarin do lightweaving? Because of Adolin’s perfected image? But then Adolin got healed. Did Renarin do two surges?
For me it also was a confirmation that he was truthwatcher.
So if Lightweavers can soulcast by convincing objects to change, that works through the cognitive realm.
Truthwatchers’ healing might work through a connection with the spiritual realm as someone in this thread already suggested.
Possibly this is the difference between the two types of lightweaving. Shallan draws a picture and convinces people to change (cognition). Renarin touches them and shows the perfect future out of the many possibilities (spiritual)
This is assuming Renarin’s powers are typical for Truthwatchers.
When I first read the Renarin Healing I thought it was his resonance, illumination/ progression combo. I thought that he performed a more complete healing of Adolin in this scene. Not just healing his physical hurts but also pushing away some of his grief at losing Sureblood and his feelings of inadequacy in being a normal Shardbearer in a world of Radiance. I thought this because the brothers read each other so well that much of their conversations occur unspoken. Things understood need not be explained as it were. I may have been reading too much into this due to the relationship I had with my own brother (although not sickly as a child nor on the spectrum, I was the Renarin in that I was the younger brother living in the shadow of the older).
@39: But why was the healing more complete this time around? During the thunderclast scene, the opposite happens: Renarin heals Adolin, but not fully. Since he had enough stormlight on him to defeat the thunderclast, I don’t think this was the limitation.
So what is different in Renarin’s healing the same brother within those two scenes?
One, Renarin was in a hurry. Two, I’m not completely sure the first was intentional. I believe he meant to heal Adolin, just not quite as completely. Renarin more than any other character we’ve seen on screen is fumbling with his powers, mainly because there are few martial applications in his power set at a time when his people are focused on war. More than anything I just think the first was a touching scene about 2 brothers in pain trying to help each other to the best of their respective abilities. The other was quick and dirty battlefield medic work.
AndrewHB@24 – Re: Renarin being a Truthwatcher – Post OB, I have no problems referring to him as a Truthwatcher, although he is likely different than the averageTruthwatcher (the Stump from Edgedancer probably best fits that description to date). Like you said, Glys’s corruption and Renarin’s “future-sight” make Renarin stand out from other Truthwatchers. My comment @23 was more about how Brandon fooled me into thinking that Renarin was your standard Truthwatcher (especially, as the reader had no reason to believe that Surgebinder spren could be corrupted by Odium until OB told us it could happen). Anyway, after Dalinar and the Stormfather counted Renarin as a representative of 1 of the 10 Orders in Chapter 119 of OB, I think we can consider Renarin as a Truthwatcher. Until Brandon shakes things up yet again…
Re: the Unmade – We also saw the effects of Moelach via the death rattles in WoK, giving us 4 Unmade we had encountered in the 1st 2 books. In OB we have Adrotagia and Taravangian discussing Moelach in Chapter 107.
Gepeto@25 – re: Adolin’s interaction – I admit I was embellishing a little for effect (I assumed that was clear, but if it wasn’t let me clear it up now), but (from my experience) many of the very Adolin fans that you mention tend to criticize Brandon a lot for not having Adolin be more central or involved in multiple different story arcs or points of view within both WoR and OB. I also assume you are embellishing for effect with your comment “…but his character never had a reaction other than ‘I will do what I can’ which always concluded itself in ‘I also succed at everything I try, even when I fail, I still succeed’” as that is also a gross overstatement (and quite inaccurate representation) of Adolin’s reactions in OB. And as we’ve discussed multiple times, I respect your right to feel how you feel about Brandon’s writing, even though we frequently disagree in our interpretations of that writing. However, it again seems that your issue is the fact that Brandon didn’t write the story you think he should have in the way that you would have it be written. I think Brandon’s portrayal of Adolin in OB was not, “ always showing him as the shining beacon of perfection” that you state (again, I assume you are embellishing for effect with another gross overstatement) and events throughout the book display that.
However, my intention was not to seriously hurt your feelings and I regret that my comments were received as such; so from one frequent commenter to another, I genuinely hope that is understood. But I had to note the irony of (and got a nice laugh from) the “gross overstatement” comment :-)
scath@30 Thanks. I agree that the reader can read what they wish in to Adolin’s motivation and actions. I was quite fine with Adolin’s arc in OB, and I look forward to his continued growth, development and interactions with Maya. And Shallan. And Renarin. And Kaladin. And as Highprince. And…
34. scath: “Do you have any other information to back up your certainty that Renarin’s epilepsy is cured other than we just have not seen it on screen in Oathbringer? Renarin does mention being concerned about having both types of fits (epileptic and future sight) during the battle at Thayla.”
No. As I tried to imply with my language, that’s just my personal reaction.
@41: But if the healing was unintentional (I do think it was), then shouldn’t it be less throughout than a healing he means to provide? Also, isn’t healing always complete? Each time we see someone heal someone else, it is always complete unless the injury is too old. I found it odd the both times it works differently is when Renarin does it….
@42: Yeah, I think we have to be careful when we use hyperbolas to reinforce our points and I do include myself here as I am guilty of having it done too. I cannot claim to speak on behalf of every single Adolin fans there is out there within the fandom, so I will merely speak for myself: I never expected nor thought nor demanded for Adolin to be the central character of the series. I have however expressed the very real desire to see him earn his own narrative which would arguably be smaller than the ones Shallan is getting, but it would, at the very least, focus on his character. This is all I wanted and I can’t say OB provided it. There was Maya towards the end, but I am deadly afraid Brandon will find a way for this to act as a foil to something else revolving around another character. Hence, I cannot rejoice on Maya: Brandon will take it away from Adolin, he won’t make him the focus of this arc, of this I am certain.
And yeah, as I said, hyperbolas are tricky. I plead guilty to having use the same narrative ploy I was criticizing you for. You are right, this was a very simplistic evaluation of Adolin’s character and not an accurate one at that. You are entirely right. I used it idiotically in response to your post, so you are definitely entitled to shove it down my face :-P I however have to state I have read many post-OB Adolin related discussions and the outcome is not… pretty.
For the rest, I think there is a general misconception my grievances, if I shall refer to them this way, have to do with Brandon not writing what I wanted him to write or something along those lines. I think this is a blunt generalization of my commentaries. Yes, I am disappointed in how Adolin turned out in OB. Yes, I felt he lacked development, so while yes I do agree he did get some, it felt unfinished. It felt like Brandon was introducing many elements into the character, but instead of letting grow with the character, to have him evolve through them, like he does for every other character, he just… I don’t know, they just disappeared and nothing feels finished whenever I read Adolin. I feel he will forever be a character with potential for development without ever getting enough of it to be satisfying. Is this clearer?
So no, I am not disappointed because Brandon did not write what I wanted him to write, I am disappointed because he didn’t write one coherent cohesive narrative for Adolin’s character. He gave him no purpose in this book other than “being there”. This is what I am disappointed in. Adolin could have gone thousand of ways, ways I never even thought of and I would have been satisfied IF it had been a story arc, but it wasn’t. And by story arc, I do not mean a 100K story arc like Shallan got, just a story arc which revolves around his character, focuses on his character and climaxes on his character. Say huh Venli or Moash. Something to give his character a purpose within the narrative.
The “shining beacon of perfection” indeed is a gross hyperbola. By saying this, I meant to echo commentaries saying how it feels, for some readers, Adolin’s character lacks flaws, lacks failure, lacks hardships. It isn’t he doesn’t have them, it is more the fact they never matter and, as a result, we end up with a character who’s very successful without needing to try very hard. If it were another book, this wouldn’t be a problem, but the fact the author spends a lot of time writing hardships for his other characters, making it nearly impossible for them to ever heal or just progress, it definitely emphasis onto this aspect of Adolin’s character. He is meant to be the contrasting character, but in OB the contrast was, IMHO, too strong and it started working against the character: not for everyone, but for some.
In other words, the focus on Shallan/Kaladin/Dalinar hardships, while amazing, does have for side effect to highlight how Adolin was given the easy way out. And now with Maya, well it makes some readers believe he has not earned it. Adolin does not deserve Maya.
Re: complete healing
I think that only goes for Aes Sedai. With them the process is relatively simple. If you know the healing spell and have the temperament you do the spell and everything that can be healed gets healed. For the Radients and Roshar in general the healing is conditional. As long as the Stormlight holds out or the severity of the injury or the level of Radient doing the healing, ect. At least that’s my observation. I’m sure our resident Cosmerenauts can confirm or deny my impression. As for the thoroughness of healing 1 vs. healing 2, like I said, I believe Renarin meant to heal Adolin both times. The first was a minor physical injury, the second more severe. The first happened in a moment when nothing else was going on, the second is in the middle of a battlefield. The first healing was the first time we’ve seen Renarin use Progression. If the behavior of other Radients saying a newly minted Oath is anything to go by then they get a huge boost, like a dam breaking. Question is, does an oath have to be spoken aloud for it to count? If not then he could have spoken his Oath in his head, got that Surgebinder boost and gave a more complete healing than he originally intended due to the extra investiture output. That’s my theory anyway.
@45: But Aes Sedai needed to know what they were doing and needed to have sufficient strength to give their healing. In the case of regrowth it is a function of how the individual perceives himself, which is likely why Renarin can’t heal too old injuries such as Rysn’s legs. They have been injured for too long, her body has taken them as the “normal state”, hence he cannot heal them anymore than Kaladin can heal his slave brand.
We have seen Renarin heal Adolin thrice:
1) This chapter shows us the first time, it likely was unintentional, the injury was several days old, painful, but not life-threatening. Renarin heals him completely and show him the perfected vision of himself.
2) When Adolin comes back from Shadesmar, Renarin heals his gut wound. Kaladin assessed the gravity of the wound and declared it was a killer. OK, huh, gut wounds are slow killers. The narrative is spot on when it says bleeding out to death with such a wound is unlikely and it also spot on when it says the biggest danger was if internal organs were pierced. They were. Adolin was doomed to die, but he wouldn’t have died within the next hour. He would have probably died days later, in atrocious pains and strong fever. Renarin heals him completely.
3) The third time is when Adolin is fighting the thunderclast. It is very hard to evaluate the severity of his injuries here given just the textual. Surely, he had broken a few ribs, his leg was probably broken to. He had hundred of cuts and his arms hurt: he couldn’t hold onto his Blade. The internal trauma he might have gotten is next to impossible to gauge; was he internally bleeding? How severe was his state? We do not really know. Renarin however heals him, quickly, but this time, the healing is not complete. Adolin’s arms are still hurting him and some of his cuts are still open, but he feels less pain and he can use his leg again.
So how does it work? Does a Radiant need to concentrate to heal someone? Or is it when there are too many injuries, it is hard to treat them all at the same time? The problem with Renarin potentially saying an oath as he heals Adolin during scene number 3 it actually is the one time where he didn’t heal all of him.
As to whether or not an oath needs to be spoken, Brandon once said a mute could become a Radiant. You do not need to say the words aloud.
I’m proposing that Renarin says his Oath at the first instance, not the second or third.
And as far as the Aes Sedai, knowing what you’re doing is basically what knowing the spell is. And yes strength in the Power goes into it. Still simpler than Radient Healing.
So to ring on briefly from my mobile regarding the healing. We have seen numerous occasions on how stormlight healing works both via passive, active and progression. I’ll need to post and reference every instance but the basics are this
If not directed, stormlight heals overall across the board. So scrapes will be healed while serious wounds will begin to be healed
Stormlight of a radiant directed. That depends on how much stormlight is available, the severity of the wound and how quickly the radiant attempts to heal it. Szeth and kaladin have prevented further healing of some wounds so as to not exhaust their stormlight supply. So when pressing issues present themselves, healing can be channeled or cut off for other uses
Stormlight of progression. As shown with lift, stump, and renarin, progression healing is more efficient and more powerful than stormlight healing but holds the same rules, in other orders, it needs to be directed, it needs supply, depends on severity, and speed of the heal.
So in summation the heal with the thunderclast was unequivically due to stress, and shortness of time. Renarin got adolin back on his feet long enough so renarin could then focus on the thunderclast. In this case based on what we know on the book there does not seem to be any other way to interpret it
It seems to me that Kal is talking to crowds and subordinates in a way he thinks Dalinar would. He started doing it after he punched Roshone and continues it here. He needs a little more practice being himself in this new role as a public Radiant.
@47: Simpler than Radiant healing? I have to strongly disagree… Aes Sedai needs to be trained for years under careful tutelage before they are apt at mastering the required weave for healing. If they screw up, they could kill the injured and this healing always comes at a cost. The injured needs to rest, a lot, even if healed. Aes Sedai healing comprised the use of several complex weaves you have to master, to weave, to produce. You have to know which one to use, how to weave it: it is unbelievably complicated.
In comparison, Radiant healing implies a Radiant touching and injured person and boom, the injured is healed. They are not required to have any medical knowledge or any knowledge over what they are doing. They don’t need to be trained nor is there any learning curve. There is literally no complexity in Radiant healing: if it fails it is either because not enough stormlight was used and/or because the wound is too old and has been incorporated to the injured cognitive shadow.
I thus have to humbly disagree: I find Aes Sedai healing considerably more complex and difficult. Radiant healing is powerful and easy. There are no stakes with it: the second Adolin gets injured, all he has to do is seek Renarin, one touch and he is ready to head back into the battle. There are zero side-effect with Radiant healing, hence it is undeniably more powerful than Aes Sedai healing. And it can heal death! Lift managed to heal death with zero experience and only two oaths. Talk about powerful.
@48: Great interpretation.
@44, Gepeto:
Not in the Stormlight Archive, no. Several characters make a point of letting go and “just being” instead of constantly thinking about their actions, making them enormously more effective. I believe Sanderson is going for the valid psychological concept of automaticity and the more arguable one of flow.
Gepeto @50
We have gotten off on a tangent but it happens in discussions like these. Anyway I will attempt to clarify Radient Healing vs. Aes Sedai Healing. Basically what we’re looking at here is tradeoffs. First, you are correct in saying AS Healing is incredibly complex and vastly energy consuming. However, this is only true for the practitioner. They do a lot of work to make healing simple for the one being healed. With them you get one of two results. Either you are healed completely or you aren’t. Radient healing on the other hand is as simple as can be. You don’t have to know anything if you are the practitioner, don’t have to put in years of study. But the trade off is that the results vary greatly depending on many factors. You may only be healed partially. You may only heal a specific area. You may get overhealed. Maybe the practitioner doesn’t even know the extent or degree to which they heal a person. I believe this is due to the power sources involved. AS have an unlimited power source. The limiting factor is how much an individual can hold. The Power is an Ocean. It’s about how big your bucket is. For Radients the holding capacity is unlimited. Or at least I don’t remember a Surgebinder saying they are holding too much Stormlight. For them the energy source itself is the limiting factor. It runs out. It can be renewed obviously but say you are in the middle of healing someone with a very serious set of injuries and your trickle of Stormlight runs out. Once it’s gone the healing stops. Radients are a battery. When the battery loses all charge you can’t turn your phone on.
I’ve been wondering for a while whether your spren can choose not to be a blade whenever they wish. What I mean is can the Radiant command them to remain in solid form for a time.The Radiant equivalent to the old ‘sock on the doorknob’ would be leaving their shardblade leaning on the outside of the bedroom door because they have some intimate company within. Even if this were a thing the Spren would probably still speak to the Radiant despite not being able to see.
I can imagine Syl’s indignation at being left outside…
The way I read it, Renarin’s partial healing of Adolin was caused because he was in a hurry. I assume the healing stops when Renarin stops touching Adolin even if he puts in extra Stormlight. Because Adolin cannot use Stormlight himself. The surge of regrowth wouldn’t be necessary if Radiants could just invest anyone for them to heal.
I am less interested in the healing of Adolin’s fresh wounds, and more in the difference in the wounds of Kalladin, the Lopen and Rysn. Rysn’s wounds are relatively fresh compared to Kalladin’s and Lopen’s wounds, but already cannot be healed. I don’t think we know how long ago Lopen lost his arm, but he managed to heal his arm when he could use Stormlight. Is there a difference between healing yourself as a Radiant and the Surge of regrowth?
Earlier I mentioned that maybe Renarin’s surge comes from a connection with the spiritual realm. Gepetto (50) mentioned that old wounds don’t heal because they have been incorporated into the cognitive shadow. So which is it. The cognitive shadow or the spirit web? And why does Lopen’s healing seem to defy what we know about healing.
Now that I think about it, Renarin’s nearsightedness was also healed, even if we are not sure about his fits.
If Radiant healing is less limited that regrowth seems to be, then maybe the healing goes through the cognitive realm. You want your arm back? In your mind you still have it , so you can get it back. Are you mentally not ready to get rid of that scar? It will stay there. The spirit web will change after a while, whether you like it or not. So regrowth (at least Renarin’s) goes through the spiritual realm.
Unfortunately the spirit web is very insistent. Like with the Lord ruler, it took more and more power to stay young because his spirit web knew he was over a thousand years old.
So will Lopen’s arm fall off if he runs out of Stormlight for a longer period of time? That didn’t happen while Kalladin was away in Part one of the book.
So many questions…
As someone who suffers from mental illness and has family who does – it is a flaw as much as heart disease or cancer is a “flaw”. It isn’t a moral failing but it is something that needs to be treated. It isn’t something to be just accepted and not fought. Implying that it is simply just an “aspect of human personality” sounds like that to me. Like the physical afflictions it is something that needs to be healed. Lets not get to close to the “their are no chemical imbalances” of the crazy anti-medication/treatment of mental illness people. If some form of Prozac existed Kaladin would benefit from it. Certainly I hope our lightweaver gets over her identity disorder and doesn’t go through her whole life accepting it.
Healing and treatment for mental disorders exists and should be used.
@55 That’s true, but as someone with Asperger’s Syndrome which as of the DSM-V has been grouped into the Autism spectrum I feel insulted to call IT a flaw. It isn’t a moral failing either, just a different way of thinking about the world.
Speaking of Prozac it has been mentioned that the Stormlight seems to act as a kind of anti-depression for Kaladin, that helps to lift his mood.
Does anyone have a clue as to why aunt Navani comes running when she smells a treat? (see last quote in the “Quality Quotations”-section)
@32: I can’t personally speak to Sanderson’s portrayal of physical (or mental) disabilities I haven’t experienced. I’m visually impaired like Renarin used to be — probably more so, though I don’t remember it well enough to be sure — but can’t relate to him on those grounds now that his vision has been healed as mine will never be unless the medical world starts to get interested in seeking a cure for ocular albinism.
@AeronaGreenjoy, I perceived Renarin as having myopia (like myself), not some more-uncommon visual problem.
Probably. But mine includes severe nyopia, as well as light sensitivity, blurred vision, and nystagmus, so I find simple myopia somewhat relatable.
RE: Young Dalinar’s heresy
I get the feeling that there are two things in Dalinar’s character that could be heretical. First, I wonder how much he believes in Devotions. I don’t remember him actually having any (except possibly to be a great soldier) and, even when he is trying hard to be a good leader in both previous books, he actively forbids Adolin from following his duelist Devotion. Second, I also am not clear that he believes all that strongly in the whole Nahn/class structure. Instead, he seems to regard people as people and respects them for their talents, not their eyecolor.
@52: While I do agree the limiting factor, in the case of Radiant healing, seems to be the availability of stormlight, as long as it is available, the healing seems really, really easy. Aes Sedai limiting factors are personal strength, training and knowledge. It seems to me Aes Sedai got the hardest job out of the lot since Radiant are merely being limited by one factor: how much stormlight they have on them.
Hence, the way I see it, Aes Sedais are limited by three factors whereas Radiants are limited by one. Also, the Radiants only limited factor is not one which is link to their personal skills unlike Aes Sedai where skill do play a strong role into the ability of even a very powerful Aes Sedai to heal someone. Worst, massively powerful Aes Sedai could have little to no skills in healing and fail at healing more than cuts and bruises despite being able to hold a lot of power.
Another aspect of Radiants I found odd when it comes to healing is how this particular surge seems to require very little training. With Kaladin, we see how his training was instrumental to his successes with both gravitation and adhesion. So while yes, the learning curve was very short, he still had to spend some time with training: the same is true for Shallan. However, every single one of our examples of a Radiant using regrowth shows little to no learning curve. Lift heals death upon her first trial. Renarin likely got to practice on many injured people, but we never get the feeling he is limited in his abilities to heal, except for wounds the injured would have assimilated as part of themselves.
This being said, it is true Radiant healing can be incomplete as seen with Adolin. It was also seen in one of Dalinar’s visions though, this time, a healing fabrial was used. The healing was purposefully directed to only heal the worst injuries in order to save stormlight for the others.
I however find it an amazingly powerful tool: the only aspect preventing a Radiant from healing grave injuries is the availability of stormlight.
@54: In the cases of Lopen and Rysn, here is how I read them.
Lopen never accepted he was one-armed: he lived his life pretending he still had two arms. Sure, it was a handicap, but it wasn’t one Lopen was accepting, was resigned to or was allowing to guide his choices.. The second he learned about stormlight’s healing capacities, he practiced trying to breath it in with the sole purpose of healing his arm.
Rysn, on the other hand, hates having lost her legs, but has accepted she did lose her legs. She lives her life as a cripple, doing a job fit for a cripple. She is utterly bored by it but she most definitely sees herself as a cripple. Her going onto her ship as if she still had her legs may change this, but as of now, she has assimilated her handicap more than Lopen despite it being more recent.
Arguably, it is probably easier to ignore the lost of one arm and to refuse to accept it more than doing the same with the lost of two legs as the second one impacts mobility whereas the first doesn’t. Still, I do believe Lopen is one clear example of someone having exactly the right mind frame to be a Radiant despite not having lived true hardships.
@58: Considering no one is acting surprised when Renarin decided to go about his every day life without his glasses, back in WoR, I suspect his eye sight issues are not drastic. In other words, if he were blind without his glasses, people would be asking more questions. Hence, I deduced he probably has regular myopia which makes him visually impaired, but not in a way where he can’t go on without his glasses. He probably can, he just doesn’t see all that well. That’s how I read it anyway.
Gepeto @62. I mostly agree with your broader point. However, you are wrong about one point. Lift never healed death when she healed Gawx. True, he might have been medically dead, but his spiritual essence/soul (not sure what the correct term is in the Cosmere) had not left his body. If it had, then Lift could not have healed Gawx.
IIRC, Nale says something to this affect after healing Szeth. Szeth was incredulous that he was still alive. He was sure Kaladin’s strike plus his fall was enough to kill Szeth. But Nale said that he revived Szeth seconds before Szeth’s soul left Szeth’s body for the Spiritual Realm. Had Szeth’s soul completely seperared from his body, then Nale would not have been able to heal Szeth.
Thanks for reading my musings.
AndrewHB
aka the musespren
(Sent via my cell phone)
Andrew @63 If I understand Secret history a bit, the soul leaves to the cognitive realm. Then it goes to the beyond, wherever that is. Not to the spiritual realm.
For Szeth he really almost was to late. Hence the light distortion around him. I first read that as an effect of his sword.
AWill provide WoB and such tomorrow but Brandon has said regrowth heals anything that “CPR” can in so far as someone could be flatlining after drowning but if you jump start the heart and administer CPR they can come back. I believe the reference is regarding brain death. There is a certain point of no return and the same applies with stormlight healing but if it’s within a certain amount of time, they can be healed. Gawn was within that time so he could be healed. Szeth was just at the edge which is why his spirit doesn’t attach to his body too well
So here at the WoB I was referring to
This one details about Lopen, Rysn, and Kaladin. Apparently the reason Lopen regrew his arm is he never saw himself as handicapped but handicapable. This one also goes into more detail on how the physical, cognitivie and spiritual realm come into play regarding healing
https://wob.coppermind.net/events/331-orem-signing/#e9441
Here are two WoB regarding what I mentioned with CPR
https://wob.coppermind.net/events/260-oathbringer-newcastle-signing/#e8758
https://wob.coppermind.net/events/175-oathbringer-houston-signing/#e8406
So Gawx was not dead, so he was able to be healed. Szeth as per Nale was just barely still within the ability to heal prior to true brain death, so that is why Szeth’s soul isn’t “properly” attached to his body and Lift can see the after images.
here is a WoB regarding stormlight healing not working on depression and the reason being it is part of the person’s personality, and does not mean there is something wrong with the person themselves
https://wob.coppermind.net/events/63-firefight-san-diego-signing/#e688
So I believe that covers all the main questions and theories regarding stormlight healing.
edit: to clarify a misunderstanding. A cognitive shadow has nothing to do with healing. As one of the WoB I posted explained, the physical self is healed to match the spiritual self, through the lense of the cognitive self.
A cognitive shadow is when an individual dies, through some mechanism investiture is flooded through filling it. The investiture acts like the minerilization of petrified wood. The investiture then becomes the person, while the “soul” goes off to the beyond. What is left is an investiture infused “copy”. So the term cognitive shadow has nothing to do with the healing process. I only specify that to prevent further confusion.
I think Renarin drawing Stormlight means he’s said at least one ideal as that seems to be loosely tied to them…but I wonder if Glys isn’t bound by the Oaths and can grant Renarin whatever he wants whenever he wants (potentially even different surges).
Brian @67, I was wondering about that… Renarin said to Adolin he asked Glys if he could be a sword…
Hadn’t occurred to me ’til now.. Radiant Renarin just deputized his brother? That would contribute to his Shadesmar blade reawakewning, prapss?
@69 longviewer
What do you mean deputized? Where do you think happened, and how, and as what?
@69: I do not understand your commentary, could you explain your thoughts?
As Kaladin turned his bridge four men into knights, did Renarin make Adolin a knight Truthwatcher by his healing/ blast of Radiance? Hopefully not a semi corrupt one.
Wondering aloud..
longviewer@69 & 72 – Kaladin didn’t turn Bridge 4 into Knights; Bridge 4 became Squires and were able to Connect with Kaladin enough to access Lashings and breathe Stormlight. Kaladin and Bridge 4’s actions (presumably) led to the attraction of other Honorspren, and those Honorspren may have chosen to bond with some of Bridge 4 – like Lopen and Teft, although Teft may have bonded his spren during a different timeframe.
So, I think it highly unlikely that Renarin turned Adolin into a Truthwatcher Radiant for a number of reasons, some of which can be extrapolated from what I said above. Additionally, I don’t think Adolin became a Truthwatcher Squire via Renarin’s Healing in Chapter 10; from what little we know of Brandon’s magic systems, things don’t seem to work that way (Brandon is big on Intent being a major factor in the magic happening). Finally, Adolin’s ShardBlade (Maya) is an Edgedancer spren, so even if Adolin were a Truthwatcher Squire (which is likely not the case) it is highly unlikely that status would contribute to Adolin awakening Maya, and could likely even hinder it.
I am late on this one too (how are toddlers and infants so demanding!?). but I wanted to say that one of the reasons I love these rereads is it gives me an idea of what other people think about characters. I have always loved Shallan and find her teasing of Kaladin to be humorous and inoffensive, but my father literally shows his love through teasing. If he isn’t gently insulting you, he doesn’t like you. I read Shallan that way. She genuinely likes other people, but she shows affection/attraction/general non romantic interest by teasing. That said, I think she may go too far sometimes, but I think she realizes that herself (and has had it pointed out by Jasnah on several occasions).
The part on page 109 where Kaladin notes that the people awaiting his arrival remind him of the day Hearthstone welcomed Roshone to their town just broke my heart. Roshone failed Hearthstone as a leader (at least in the beginning) by not caring for its people.Kaladin cares very much for the Alethi people, but he and the other Radiants will still fail to rescue their homeland by the end of Oathbringer (an impossible task to be sure, it is just a sad parallel).
I find it interesting that Syl refers to Adolin’s shardplate as a corpse of one of her sisters. I got the impression from our time in Shadesmar that spren are fairly racist (spren-ist?), so it was nice to go back and see Syl standing in solidarity with all of the bonding spren here. Or perhaps the Edgedancer spren are just too nice to be hated by anyone; I personally find Wyndle to be very sweet and charming.
Adolin hasn’t recited the Immortal Words (as far as we can tell) and therefore is not a Radiant.
I would expect that his taking an Oath would restore Mayalaran, just as it did the almost-as-dead Sylphrena.
While I want this to be a positive foreshadowing of Rysadium heroes, I have a feeling that in this series it will be used horribly by trapping a Ryshadium’s spren and forcing it to obey whoever bonds to its stone, just like the dead Shardblades.
Sanderson!
I’m so behind on this!
So…not having read the comments yet, maybe I’m a minority, maybe not, but I actually find Syl annoying and she’s probably one of my least favorite characters (not that there are really many characters I dislike). I don’t love Shallan’s quips either – not the quip part of it, but because I think sometimes they actually aren’t as funny as she (or maybe Brandon) thinks they are – but I don’t mind that’s how she is and I think it’s a reasonable portrayal as how somebody in her situation might act.
Syl on the other hand just constantly sounds (to me) like she’s trying too hard to be the witty, snappy, sassy character trope who can get away with saying stuff others can’t and speaking the hard truths (I can think of several characters I love who do this in other works) but just comes off as really childish and full of herself and not-funny. I can’t put my finger on exactly what bugs her, but stuff like the “when you’re being a dour idiot. Which is most of the time. So there.” to me just makes me roll my eyes. I would go nuts if she were constantly on my shoulder. Again, it’s not that she teases him that bothers me, but for whatever reason the dialogue just doesn’t give me the same vibe, or the humor isn’t landing for me personally. It might just be a minor personal taste issue as I feel like there are a few other characters of Brandon’s in other works that are supposed to be funny and just…aren’t to me.
Regarding Renarin – Adolin’s perception of him goes a huge way towards softening my feelings towards Adolin, who in previous books I was more or less ambivalent about. :D :D The way he describes his thought process is actually a lot like my husband’s, and I’ve had to kind of ‘defend’ him before since people sometimes think he he makes no sense. For the broken discussion…there’s a lot going on there. As somebody who has struggled with depression and anxiety before (and who has a child on the autism spectrum and shares many traits with them), I appreciate the care being taken to portray it well and that it’s not always simply portrayed as an illness that needs to be fixed. On the other, things like depression are hard to think about as ‘just another way of viewing the world’ (like autism might be). So it’s a line to walk.
A few other things, now that I’ve had time to read the comments (almost as meaty as the post itself!)
-I also love Steris and Renarin
-Regarding how one ‘sees themselves’ and depression – when I’m depressed I feel like I don’t know which version of me is the ‘real’ me. It sometimes feel like the depressed version is really the real me, and everything else is a lie. I’d like to think Stormlight can at least help with depression (perhaps help boost the right hormones/neurotransmitters) even if it doesn’t permanently cure it. I’m with dwcole that things like depression are distinct from the autism spectrum and it is fine to treat them as something that should be healed. Although I also have a somewhat melancholic personality which is different,
-I also meant to say the first time around that the heresy line in the epigraph definitely had me leaning towards Jasnah for quite awhile and now that we know it’s Dalinar, I’m also wondering what his heresy was.
Lisamarie? Dalinar’s heresy is not believing that Honor is the Almighty, and also believing that he’s dead.
Yes, obviously that’s his heresy now, but it’s interesting that he may have also already started thinking this when he was a child. So I’m wondering what brought that it about and how much he thought about it, and if he expressed it in those same terms (even if just to himself), etc.